-
Crossing the lines of gender and appearance
Hi Girls
Check out the interesting series of images captured by a Canadian photographer on the web link below and who believes that “we should not be limited to what we can and can’t wear”. It was on news.com.au this morning.
Regards
Marian
-
14 Replies
-
Thanks for posting this. Isn’t it interesting how in each image the girls do not look in any way ‘unusual’ in the clothing intended for the (binary) alternate gender. These images clearly show how clothing is gendered & gender expression (with costume) is a construct. The only reason the guys look in some instances ‘unusual’ is simply because it is unusual to see them dressed that way. To change that perception only requires enough guys to dress in alternate gender intended clothing for it to be as usual as it is for the girls.
That said, if clothing was not gendered I guess I would have to go greater lengths to show off my apparently female body to indicate my alliance with females rather than males – just a thought & one I’ve pondered many times – what is gender & how do we indicate it? -
Hi Chloe
Glad you liked the article. Now that you mention it I had not blinked much of consequence in seeing the ‘girls’. Their capacity to wear ‘anything’ and get away with it has been normailsed from my perspective. I have definitely been conditioned to respond such. But the boys certainly were more conspicuous to me. and your point about going to greater lengths to empathise with the girls I can relate to.
Regards
Marian
-
I would like to point out that the boys weren’t really making an attempt to wear the clothes properly, if you look at some of the pictures a little adjustment would have improve the look. Mind you beards and moustaches do look out of place with feminine clothes, but I guess the exercise was to put obviously male people into obviously feminine clothes. I still think though that with a little more care the guys could have looked a 100% better.
-
Hi Pamela
I think your right. Just a bit too wooden in their disposition. The girls are obviously more naturally comfortable in whatever attire they wear. And it must be great to wear whatever clothes you like and still look good or natural in them.
Take care.
Regards
Marian
-
Hi,
OK, the guy has a beard and short hair.
Three changes I would like to see for comparson are
Remove beard
Long hair
Wear woman clothes properly or remake clothes to fit the male stature.
Then compare images
This would be interesting
JeorjetteModerator
Quote:Off-topic stuff deleted[/mod]
-
Hi Jeorjette
You are right, with attention to such detail the photographer would have made a more compelling argument.
Regards
Marian
-
Quote:but I guess the exercise was to put obviously male people into obviously feminine clothes.
My understanding of the project was to show the limitations placed upon individuals due to the expectation of gender conformity in dress, with the result being as I described; that we accept females in most garb because it is not an unfamiliar sight. If the exercise was about guys in girls clothing then what was the point of including the girls? This project is not about transgender, it is about gender.
Quote:The girls are obviously more naturally comfortable in whatever attire they wear. And it must be great to wear whatever clothes you like and still look good or natural in them.I don’t think that the guys necessarily look unnatural just unfamiliar to us. As was mentioned elsewhere, if the women’s clothes had been cut for the male body the clothes would hang better. I’m not convinced that the guys look any more or less comfortable than the girls in their stances. I wonder if it is the dissonance experienced by the viewer rather than the reality in the images. i.e.; you perceive them as being uncomfortable because you are uncomfortable with an image that is inconsistent with your expectations. If that is the case then I suspect the photographer would feel that the exercise has been a success.
Quote:OK, the guy has a beard and short hair.
Three changes I would like to see for comparson are
Remove beard
Long hairTo remove the beard defeats the purpose of the exercise. It is not about cross dressing & endeavouring to look more like a woman but rather a comment or exploration about why we perceive the images to be ‘wrong’ when a bearded person wears a dress. As for the long hair, not all women have long hair – that’s a stereotype. Again defeating the purpose of the exercise. Your suggestions may well make for an interesting alternate exercise but probably only of interest to people who are Tg.
Quote:You are right, with attention to such detail the photographer would have made a more compelling argument.As I mentioned above, with attention to those details the exercise would be quite different. The first image shows the girl dressed in his clothes & they quite obviously don’t fit or hang well on her. If you look closely the photographer has gone to great detail in having the posture & stances as similar as possible in each alternate image as well as details like jewellery & glasses.
If this topic is of interest to you then I can recommend Hana Pesut’s web site. There are many more images from her switcheroo project.
Here’s a thought: if all humans had to wear the one same head to toe garment that showed no body form ie; it indicated no body sex other than the eyes, would you still try to indicate your allegiance, alliance, preference, need, leaning, what ever you want to call it toward a gender display other than what you have been ascribed?
Consider the garment worn by some Islamic women? In their case the garment indicates gender because it is for women but what if we all had only that garment? -
As I can’t edit my previous post I need to make a correction here.
I previously wrote:Quote:Here’s a thought: if all humans had to wear the one same head to toe garment that showed no body form ie; it indicated no body sex other than the eyes, would you still try to indicate your allegiance, alliance, preference, need, leaning, what ever you want to call it toward a gender display other than what you have been ascribed?
Consider the garment worn by some Islamic women? In their case the garment indicates gender because it is for women but what if we all had only that garment?It should read: Here’s a thought: if all humans had to wear the one same head to toe garment that showed no body form ie; it indicated no body sex other than the eyes, would you still try to indicate your allegiance, alliance, preference, need, leaning, what ever you want to call it toward a gender (edit word) other than what you have been ascribed?
Consider the garment worn by some Islamic women? In their case the garment indicates gender because it is for women but what if we all had only that garment?[/ -
Chloe
You ask a very interesting and profound question. And very thought provoking it is too. It would certainly be very difficult to express our allegiance, our disposition and inclinations to whatever gender we feel best with if that were the case. We would have to either make do with our innermost thoughts to provide us the comfort we seek and or try and make and or mimic the outward most expressions and manners of our preferred gender to a greater degree than some of us do. Or can do.
Your perspective on this further considered, then clothing differences are very important; or at least for my case. If I could look the same as my preferred gender from a features point of view then that would go a long way in the absence of clothing that distinguished. But it would be a more difficult challenge in the absence of the accoutrements.
It begs the question though and that is: if we had been brought up in a world where everyone dressed the same, then would some of us have not been influenced to cross the gender divide: much less thought about it.
And then again those qualities and attributes of the opposite gender that we are drawn to may still make for a compelling desire to emulate.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Regards
Marian
-
Hi all,
This is a very interesting question – like what does a crossdresser do in a society where all genders wear the same thing ? :Like In Mao s China where all genders wore that “uniform ” ? Which leads to the inevitable question of what makes you dress as a woman ? Seems to me the clothes are a intergral part of being a girl and their much more desirable to me .
With the pics shown ,the girls outfit of a Tunic , Dress ,Oversize T shirt or whatever over tights is becoming a unisex ,if not male look in that I see many young men wearing spray on jeans ( many choose black ) under an oversize T shirt or shirt .Thje jeans are usually so tight they look very much like tights . I go around in similar outfits in boy mode and dont seem to raise any under attention.If more males adopted this look we may be on the way to a real change …. ?
Hugs
Suzz -
What a top little conversation starter! My reaction was almost identical to Chloe’s, noting that the photographer had indeed gone to some trouble to mimic the poses as well as the clothing. I thought that the main problem with the exercise was the, at times, disparity in sizes. The guy with his knee out to one side actually looks quite comfortable-beard notwithstanding. I think there are plenty of clothes being worn by men today that a bloke wouldn’t have dared walked down the street in in 1970. And as for young men’s hairstyles, many would have been considered utterly feminine once not that long ago.
But on the notion of Mao’s China where everyone wore boiler suits-I imagine any TG person would have been culled by the cultural revolution so we’ll probably never know how they felt. But I suspect that we would be aware of things which are subtle enough that the overt displays of masculinity and femininity conceal them in our everyday lives of today. Would we be as driven to mimic them? Who knows?
-
I’ve found the Switcheroo Project rather interesting, and certainly one that might challenge the concepts held by some people.
Some of the switches I thought quite intriguing in that although it was obvious they’d swapped clothing neither looked particularly unusual. That leads to my comment on part of Suzzanne’s post:Quote:With the pics shown ,the girls outfit of a Tunic , Dress ,Oversize T shirt or whatever over tights is becoming a unisex ,if not male look in that I see many young men wearing spray on jeans ( many choose black ) under an oversize T shirt or shirt .Thje jeans are usually so tight they look very much like tights . I go around in similar outfits in boy mode and dont seem to raise any under attention.If more males adopted this look we may be on the way to a real change …. ?
Hugs
SuzzI completely agree. I’ve done a bit of travelling over the last couple of years and visited quite a few different parts of Australia. The clothing worn by ‘locals’ very frequently reflects what happens in those areas. In rural communities both males and females wear very similar, practical clothing most days. In some of our ‘beachy, touristy’ type areas attire is very different. I’ve seen men wearing outfits very similar to the ‘girls’ clothing being worn by Monica and Albert with hardly a reaction, whilst the ‘switch’ made by Henny and Michael wouldn’t be particularly out of place on the Gold Coast, except for maybe the length of the coat/wrap.
I think challenging the clothing stereotypes is a great idea. Where that leaves me in relation to Chloe’s question of garments being all the same, with no gender-defining features, I’m not sure. Once again, she stimulates my thought processes.
-
Sorry ,but I forgot to say that in addition to men wearing the Top over tights look Ive also seen quite a few young men wearing tights under a pair of shorts – no, not branded “Compression Tights” like Skins, but black or grey cotton lycra under a pair of casual shorts, going to mid thigh or lower.The get up of wearing skins or similar with or without shorts to and from training /gym etc seems now to be a ‘Fait Accompli ‘ with sporty typse, or those wanting to appear sporty wandering around completely unnoticed by all (well all those excepting image concious types ) >Overall I think its good to see such and is a
complete change to what was happening 10, or even 5 yrs back .I remember that to wear a pair of Skins or similar in a gym or when running was to risk ridicule – well sometimes good natured ridicule .When the variuos codes of footy started to wear such en mass at training it was suddenly “cool” to dress that way .
I think men are so slow to adopt fashion changes becuase our niumber 1 fear is to appear to other men as effeminate and afet all “clothes maketh the man”
Suzz -
I’m glad the question was thought provoking & the responses have been well considered, a good conversation I think.
I was alluding to the questions asked by Marian & Suzzanne;Quote:It begs the question though and that is: if we had been brought up in a world where everyone dressed the same, then would some of us have not been influenced to cross the gender divide: much less thought about it.It seems in regard to ‘cross-dressing’ there are different motivations & hence there are different categories one may consider oneself to fit into. My gut tells me that if some couldn’t view the female form then their motivation may not be initiated.
(I suspect I may be skating on thin ice with this thought though).Quote:Your perspective on this further considered, then clothing differences are very important; or at least for my case. If I could look the same as my preferred gender from a features point of view then that would go a long way in the absence of clothing that distinguished. But it would be a more difficult challenge in the absence of the accoutrements.I can’t state this emphatically but I currently tend to believe that I dress in clothing intended for women, deliberately wanting to look like a female/woman to;
1. indicate to the viewer that I do not wish to be understood as a man.
2. indicate to the viewer that I feel an allegiance or inclination toward women & their (generally accepted) ways of thinking.
3. to challenge the viewer into thinking about exactly what this thread is about.
4. when I view my reflection, what I see (as a female bodied woman) looks like ‘me’.
5. because I am a visually expressive person, I really like the endless choices of garments & presentation available to women. (as can be witnessed in the switcheroo project).Having now been fulltime for almost 4 months, I have experienced the consequences (on a daily basis) of the dissonance some viewers feel when an apparently female bodied person has an obviously male face & voice. Some people are quite confused & enough people stare for a prolonged period, to have prompted me to very seriously consider FFS. This consideration has led me to seriously ponder whether or not I would choose the same female intended garments & hair style & in particular how often I would wear makeup if my face said female. My conclusion is that I would be able to wear my hair off my face, wear makeup if the occassion was appropriate (I currently wear it every day, even whilst doing manual labour) & wear far more practical garments while doing said labour. I would still wear all of my other clothes but would not have to consider how feminine I looked in the outfit because I will appear female with or without the garments. So the question (for me) of ‘how much does the clothing matter?’ is that it’s importance diminishes the more female I look without the clothing. What I’ve come to realise is that I wish to be identified as female – the clothes just help the process.
Quote:If more males adopted this look we may be on the way to a real change …. ?Change is constant – ponder that for a moment.
Quote:The guy with his knee out to one side actually looks quite comfortable-beard notwithstanding. I think there are plenty of clothes being worn by men today that a bloke wouldn’t have dared walked down the street in in 1970. And as for young men’s hairstyles, many would have been considered utterly feminine once not that long agoFelicity, I actually thought the same thing about the guy on the beach in the grey dress. I thought he looked comfortable & quite cool actually, he reminded me of some of the hippies I grew up around.
My father was a hippie/bohemian in the seventies & frequently wore khaftans & the like, it did not seem unusual to me, unless of course he dropped me off at school & the other kids saw him. Having said that, I did earn some cred for having a cool dad. I think the context that we view people in has a bearing on whether or not the costume is acceptable/tolerable. The context today has changed in most urban & even some suburban areas due to a more cosmopolitan mix of people. Just as we have an extensive choice of cuisine today, so do we have an ever broadening choice of garments to wear. The real challenge is for TG people to have the courage to present themselves to the greater public. Discussing it in these forums is a good start but doing it is what causes change.
I may have written this elsewhere (I apologise if I am repeating myself), A psychologist once pointed out to me that there was infact nothing wrong with my choice of clothing – I just lived in the wrong area & associated with the wrong people. In the context of the conversation at the time, she was dead right.Jane also mentions this point of context. (sorry I can’t work out how to insert a quote as an after thought) Jane wrote;
I’ve done a bit of travelling over the last couple of years and visited quite a few different parts of Australia. The clothing worn by ‘locals’ very frequently reflects what happens in those areas. In rural communities both males and females wear very similar, practical clothing most days. In some of our ‘beachy, touristy’ type areas attire is very different. I’ve seen men wearing outfits very similar to the ‘girls’ clothing being worn by Monica and Albert with hardly a reaction, whilst the ‘switch’ made by Henny and Michael wouldn’t be particularly out of place on the Gold Coast, except for maybe the length of the coat/wrap.Quote:But I suspect that we would be aware of things which are subtle enough that the overt displays of masculinity and femininity conceal them in our everyday lives of today.The following are generalisations but possibly; the pause & listen approach of many women. The gentleness, softness & nurturing, the general sensitivity often lacking with men. I suspect that we may pay more attention to the differences between individuals rather than their presentation.
Quote:Once again, she stimulates my thought processes.Thanks Jane, it’s great to hear from you again. I thought you’d gone AWOL.
Quote:I think men are so slow to adopt fashion changes becuase our niumber 1 fear is to appear to other men as effeminate and afet all “clothes maketh the man”I tend to agree Suzzanne.
Dismissing the minority that stare, my experience (& I have no doubt many, many others) suggests that presenting as Tg today is really not that difficult, provided you are confident & realise that a great many people would love to be able to do a great many things but simply lack the confidence. It is a common occurence for people to tell me that they admire my courage. That says a lot more about them than it does about me.
