Deep thought, none of us can actually be a Binary anything

[Anonymous]

Sorry Pamela, I don’t agree. But it is a great concept to explore.

The concept of “binary genders” is the accepted norm. We are either one or the other – male or female. This is because at the simplest level of definition, the human species has defined everything as one OR the other. It is by sheer numbers that the concept has been accepted as a standard.

Anything else is a deviation from the accepted. Another way to look at it is that we are all a variety of blends of the 2 or an absence of either. But, it is still about the 2 genders – the “binary” so to speak.

At the moment of birth – the question most often asked is “boy” OR “girl”. Anything other than a reply of one OR the other seems to cause a lot of concern. We know that there are many other options. The general population is “learning” that the question may be more complex to answer than boy/girl, male/female.

I do like your postulation that we can all be “binary individuals” but binary by definition means composed of 2 parts. Maybe we are all schizophrenic? In which case we can all keep ourselves company. 🙄

This is something I have been giving quite some thought to lately. I have come to the realisation that we say we are striving to dismantle the concept of “binary genders” as a society. But, it seems to me that what we are really striving for is for society to accept the we should be able to demonstrate characteristics of the opposite gender without prejudice. By doing this we are acknowledging that the concept exists and we are seeking permission to go outside what is generally accepted. We know that exceptions do exist as they are everywhere if people are prepared to look.

Amanda-Adrian expanded on the basic concept of binary gender with the survey a while ago having 5 options to give a spectrum of choices. But the basic premise is that gender can be expressed as a 2 part code. Where 1=male and 0=female, the vast majority of people can express themselves as 11=male or 00=female. But there are also 10=more male than female, 01=more female than male or 00=neither.

Hmmm. A lot of thinking. And as my partner just pointed out to me. There are 1-0 types of people who understand the concept of binary. Those who do and those who don’t.

I do hope that anyone who reads this understands that it was written tongue in cheek and as a personal exploration of the subject 😆

[Anonymous]

Pamela wrote;

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Great I just made myself an individual with my own identity.

I’ve written here a few times now, how my father used to remind me as a teenager, that I didn’t need to invest so much energy into being an individual because I am one whether I like it or not! (Brian – of the Life of Brian, said the same).
I too have thought about this concept for a long time now. Long before I ever understood that I could be explained as gender diverse. In my twenties I agonised over why I was so different to most other people I knew. I tried so hard to just be like ‘everybody else’ but never could achieve it, at best I was a parody of ‘normality’ (as I saw it).

The complex overlapping of characteristics that each of us display is a consequence of the complexity of the factors that affect us throughout our lives. We are (at least in my mind) all individuals anyway.

The observant ones would recognise that I usually refer to gender as a concept & that is because philosophically it is. When viewed that way it allows for individual interpretation & the possibility of no actual definitive answer. I feel most comfortable with that approach, it has allowed me to go about living the way I feel without having to justify myself to others or be able to be measured & diagnosed. No different to not wanting my creativity to be measured & explained by someone other than me.
The medical field does not entertain philosophy, it (the medical field) works better in absolutes. Gender as a philosophy is problematic for medicine as there are conditions that can be specific to one or the other of the (generally) accepted binary genders.

As Portia has stated;

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The concept of “binary genders” is the accepted norm. We are either one or the other – male or female. This is because at the simplest level of definition, the human species has defined everything as one OR the other. It is by sheer numbers that the concept has been accepted as a standard.

Most humans prefer ‘yes’ or ‘no’, ‘this’ or ‘that’ answers. For many situations ‘yes’ or ‘no’ may not be the only option though. This is where both philosophy & religion fit in but for the majority to be catered for in an organised manner statistics offers a solution.

Gender diversity (& other variations, including creativity) ‘throw a spanner in the works’ as so many factors can be (if one chooses) identified as causal (or part there of) but none definitively.

I like Portia’s comments on the idea of a distribution of the binary attributes of female/male gender. She wrote;

Quote:

Amanda-Adrian expanded on the basic concept of binary gender with the survey a while ago having 5 options to give a spectrum of choices. But the basic premise is that gender can be expressed as a 2 part code. Where 1=male and 0=female, the vast majority of people can express themselves as 11=male or 00=female. But there are also 10=more male than female, 01=more female than male or 00=neither.

About 6 months ago I wrote a post (unfortunately now lost from another forum) postulating that the concept of the gender binary can still work if we started from a position of neutral. Along the same lines as what Portia suggests above, the attributes of masculinity/femininity are accepted as observable but a new way to understand their distribution (in regard to gender) would be; we all start as neutral gender (not sex) but for many & varied reasons the distribution of gender specific characteristics are not equal, whether that be pre or post natal. This allows for all variations of gender display & experience to be seen as ‘acceptable’. Statistics will always apportion ‘normal’ to the majority but at least all aspects of gender characteristics would be seen as from the same supply (so to speak). The gender ‘bucket’ if you will.

There are many ‘holes’ in that ‘bucket’ theory & it will require a great deal more thought but to be honest, right now my head is spinning. 🙄

I would point out on behalf of intersexed people that there are more than two positions of ‘sex’ & that in itself poses a problem for the idea that, born this sex or that, one must be this gender or that. The intersexed people among us rightly would question “so which gender should I be then?” if the binary concept of gender is correct.

Pamela wrote;

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So I am proposing a new theory, and that is that everyone is an individual and there are no stereotypes for us to be aligned with, physically or mentally. Which I guess means we are all our own person and noone can judge anyone else because there is no precedent for them to compare you with.

It’s called unconditional acceptance.
When each of us (if we can) achieve this then we are truly accepting of ourselves & others.
Achievable? I don’t know.
Worthy of pursuit? I believe so.

As a separate point & not with any malice intended, I would like to address another issue. Most of us here don’t wish to be misrepresented (even when it is unintentional) & that concern is held by other minorities as well. I realise it was said with humour & do get the joke…but…people who are diagnosed as schizophrenic do not display different personalities, that is a different diagnosis. Each time that joke is perpetuated it is equivalent to having people think that gender diversity equals “drag’. I only wish to educate, nothing more.

[Anonymous]

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As a separate point & not with any malice intended, I would like to address another issue. Most of us here don’t wish to be misrepresented (even when it is unintentional) & that concern is held by other minorities as well. I realise it was said with humour & do get the joke…but…people who are diagnosed as schizophrenic do not display different personalities, that is a different diagnosis. Each time that joke is perpetuated it is equivalent to having people think that gender diversity equals “drag’. I only wish to educate, nothing more.

Good point. I should have said Multiple Personality Disorder or Dissociative Identity Disorder as these are the correct terms for persons exhibiting 2 or more distinct personalities. Either way, what was said tongue in cheek was a cheap shot for the sake of a bit of humour and unnecessary. My apologies.

[JaneS]

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Good point. I should have said Multiple Personality Disorder or Dissociative Identity Disorder as these are the correct terms for persons exhibiting 2 or more distinct personalities. Either way, what was said tongue in cheek was a cheap shot for the sake of a bit of humour and unnecessary. My apologies.

As one who has seen, in another place, the damage that ill-advised humour can cause when ‘jokes’ are made about mental illnesses I think your apology is most welcome and freely accepted.

Humour is one of those odd aspects of human existence where sometimes we within a certain ‘group’ feel comfortable making jokes about ourselves and/or our conditions or situations. I have been guilty of making such jokes at the expense of myself and others, on far too many occasions. What we can forget, though, is that often others within our ‘group’ may have different sensitivities and may thus not find what we say humourous. For that reason I think your apology was gracious.

I am one who sometimes uses humour to cover up my own insecurities though lately my inner battles elicit little to laugh about. I would dearly love to embrace Pamela’s concept that I am an individual and should thus not be judged by others but I am my own judge and jury. At times I do feel ‘comfortable’ in this company yet at other times doubts reassail my confidence. I find it difficult to determine where on the gender spectrum I belong because I can’t identify where I am. Should I be more one way or the other? Am I already that way and should just accept it? What am I trying to accept?

Chloe speaks of “unconditional acceptance” and for me that’s a pretty easy thing to do – for others. It is accepting myself, and working out just what I’m accepting, that challenges me. Maybe I’m more suited to an analogue world where there is more than the binary condition of on/off.

[Adrian]

Moderator

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The last two posts have nicely wandered off the original topic….
a clear failure for my new checklist that asked…

Deep thought, none of us can actually be a Binary anything ?
Does your post address the subject of this thread?

In a day or so I will have to delete these two posts so we can go back to the topic.

I must stress that splitting posts out just because someone has changed the topic costs me a lot of time… that I don’t have right now.

If you want to discuss a tangential topic… please start a new thread

[Anonymous]

I’m getting in too deep now I know and will be forever sin-binned for this addition to my original post.However I did start this Forum with the intention of exploring theories, not facts, because as we all know the theories of today all too often become the facts of tomorrow. So if you think you may be offended by anything that may be written in this forum please do not read any further because everything I have written here is designed to provoke thoughts and healthy discussions on a theory that may or may not have any substance, and certainly doe’s not contain many facts. So in an effort, to lighten the tone a little, I give you the immortal words of Eric Idle “Life is full of shit, when you think of it”.

What if all the conditions Transgender, Lesbian, Gay, Straight and Bi-Sexual were all controlled by our genetic make-up. If all people weren’t just displaying a sexual or gender choice but instead were answering to a deeper message, built into their bodies, by a heretofore undiscovered genetic switch hidden in our DNA. Now I say our DNA because we all have it, DNA that is not all of the other alternatives.

I am going to generalise a little here so don’t Berate me for missing some obvious facts. I am drawn back to the case of GID people, (not because I want to pick on them or insult them) but because they believe that they are women (no I don’t doubt it at all as I do to a certain extent) and take hormones to help with physical and mental changes and eventually have GRS and change their sex on Birth certificates, drivers licence etc. Does this mean that many or all of them are comfortable pursuing relationships with men? I only ask this because if it is true that gay men may have a DNA switch that makes them be attracted to males sexually, could it be possible that GID people have the same switch but also a switch telling them that they are a woman.

Naturally of course this would be the same for Transgendered people, Lesbians and Bisexual’s as well, living their lives responding to a series of predetermined genetic switches in their DNA. If this is the case, where doe’s that put Transgendered People, Lesbians, Gay’s, Straight’s and Bi’s in the Binary scale. I didn’t say sex or gender because in this case there may not be a clear separation between the two. Actually if you put everyone of us into a big pot, Gender and Sex may not be very good terms to use at all.

Basically what I am asking is could there be a series of genetic switches that define what we are, who we are attracted to etc etc. If so then perhaps we need to change the way we look at Gender and Sex and then perhaps we could say with some certainty that there is no Binary Sex/Gender and we are all part of a genetic rainbow of different people, Hang on I started there didn’t I, we are all individuals.

[Anonymous]

Hello again Pamela.

The world is full of billions of people. Each of these people are individuals whose make up is determined by a genetic code which consists of billions of combinations. Each individual human being is a unique creation. So, when you look at an individuals as individuals, they are each truly unique.

But, human beings like order. So, as human beings we develop classifications and group like with like in order to make sense of our world. We need to make ourselves comfortable in the belief that we “understand” our world. So, in order to “classify” groups, we look at the individuals and find some common factors between them.

So here we find ourselves at opposite ends of your question. It is not that we have any disagreement. It is more about the interpretation of the question. The concept of “binary genders” is the simplest grouping by which that we can easily classify individuals. Simply based on gentics, people can be classified as male OR female, a combination of both or an absense of either. Does it exist – yes. But we are also individuals and everyone exhibits their own interpretation of how they see themselves in their own gender.

I have a headache now and have thought about it all for too long and too hard.

[Anonymous]

Just a simple point, the genetic code that inhabits ever cell in the body is influenced by the environment. This field of study is called epigenetics , in effect influences from the environment interact with the genes and those differences of environmental influence create difference in the expression of those genes. As to gender expressions there are further psychological influences on top of any genetic propensity to gender how ever displayed.

[Anonymous]

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Simply based on genetics, people can be classified as male OR female

Sorry Portia but I have to disagree with this one, mainly because genetics aren’t simple. As Kristyana ha pointed out there are environmental influences on the propensity of the gene to carry out it’s role. I think one of those influences is hormones and there are probably many more lurking in the shadows waiting to be discovered. We already know that our DNA can produce a male body and encased within are some pretty heavy duty genes that can tell you you are female, among other things.

It has also been stated that sheer numbers dictate the relevance of having two genders however this is only a label of convenience for the masses to digest. After all large numbers of people thought that Adolf Hitler was a good bloke too, what happened to that theory I wonder.

So what about the other groups I mentioned in my last post, are they subject to the epigenetic process do you think. Where external forces have a direct impact on the operation of the genome. So far I have seen mounting evidence to suggest that Binary Gender is a fallacy and should probably be called Binary Sex instead. Lets face it no matter who your preferred sex partner is there has only really been male and female sexes.

[Anonymous]

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Portia said

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Simply based on genetics, people can be classified as male OR female

Pamela responded-
Lets face it no matter who your preferred sex partner is there has only really been male and female sexes.

My full statement was

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Simply based on genetics, people can be classified as male OR female, a combination of both or an absense of either.

I’m sure I’m not alone here but I may be wrong – isn’t that the same thing?

A transwoman arguing on behalf of the concept of binary genders…….hmm?

[Anonymous]

Sorry Portia you lost me in there somewhere, I did say that there could be Binary sexes but not Binary genders. I believe there is a difference.

Your first quote though was from the end of my post and I couldn’t see the reason for the jump sorry.