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Does HRT reveal your true inner gender?
I have found reading the various responses on the thread about HRT and ambition ( http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F176/5132-132 ) fascinating – so thank you everyone for sharing how you feel HRT has affected your behaviour, in particular your ambition.
The only conclusion I can reach from that thread is that HRT is perceived to affect individuals emotionally in markedly different ways.
Into this veritable pool of uncertainty Felicity threw a thought-provoking (for me) spanner. She wrote
Quote:“I felt (and still stand by this) that if I were truly TG then HRT should not change me much emotionally.”Which leads to the question:
Does the reaction to HRT indicate something about one’s inner gender?
I wanted to discuss this in the thread where Felicity brought it up – so the context is not lost. But what I’m about to post is only tangentially related to the issue of ambition. So here, for reference, is part of what Felicity wrote….
Quote:have to say my experience echoes that of Bambi. Physical changes were subtle but effective. As an aside, if you should start on HRT use a tape measure on a regular basis. The change in your proportions (more than your size) will be comforting to you. But physical changes are well documented and fairly consistent.Before I talk about perceived/observed emotional changes I have to say that when I commenced HRT I did so as the final tick on my check list. By that I mean I had spent more than fifty years of my life wondering why I felt the urge to dress and comport as a woman. It gradually became apparent to me that, on the balance of probabilities, I was genuinely transgendered and the only way to confirm that for me was to try HRT. I felt (and still stand by this) that if I were truly TG then HRT should not change me much emotionally. If I had been born with some instrinsically female component then oestrogen should awaken that further, not change me substantially. As far as I’m concerned this has been the case. Two and a half years into HRT and my emotions haven’t changed. My body has turned from athletic male to tomboy female (my GG partner’s words). ……….
Can I first side step the “label” issue – which I assume was not intentional. As we know a large number of people are transgender and gender diverse, but do not consider they are “all-woman” inside. So an identification with being transgender/gender diversity/gender dysphoria/GID/whatever does not on its own imply that the person is completely instrinsically female. Because gender is internalised we don’t have a label for those TGs who feel they are essentially a woman – nor it would appear till now did we have a test.
But into this space Felicity proposes an observable test…
Quote:if someone undertaking M->F HRT exhibits emotional changes then that person could not have been essentially female inside to begin with.I’d like to explore the implications of such a test.
Firstly, we would have to set some threshold for the observed emotional change. Genetic women routinely experience emotional changes as a result of natural variations in hormone levels in their body. If a male undergoing HRT experienced similar fluctuations then it wouldn’t indicate that they weren’t essentially female to start with. So some periodic emotional change may be OK.
Then, the use of the word ‘exhibits’ is I think key in Felicity’s proposed test. It doesn’t matter what effects you think HRT is having on you, what matters is how your emotional behaviour is perceived by others. I’ve been in the Sydney TG community for a “little while”, and have known (sometimes quite well) many people on HRT. My observation based a fairly large sample size, is that there are those for whom HRT seems to have no real effect other than a feminising of body shape. But they are a very few. The vast majority of those I have known exhibit significant changes in behaviour and in quite a few cases the changes are so profound as to destroy relationships.
So if Felicity’s test is accepted as valid, then the clear conclusion is:
The majority of those on HRT are not essentially women inside – just waiting (as Felicity put it) for estrogen to awaken them.
Or putting it more bluntly, most of those who describe themselves as a woman born into the wrong body are oversimplifying the situation.I know such a situation would be uncomfortable for many, with its implications about the selectivity of GID diagnosis and the undermining of a clear do/don’t do case for SRS. But I have for a long time felt that the issue of who is a woman, and what it means, has been grossly oversimplified.
Maybe Felicity’s test is a valuable step in demonstrating how as a community our gender truly is diverse.
What do you think?
On topic responses please addressing the question
Does the reaction to HRT indicate something about one’s inner gender?
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7 Replies
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Wow. Good question.
I will stay on topic as to how it relates to me as I would not like to assume what others think of this question.
While reading your posting A/A, I found myself swinging from agreement to opposition to reflecting on my own experiences. I have read through some old postings of mine which have highlighted the difference between where I now perceive myself to have been at that time and where I actually perceived myself to be AT that time.
There seems to be a great deal of difference between what I remember and what I writing about how I was feeling at various points of time in my journey.
Was this HRT awakening my inner gender expression? I think the implied question from the responses and above is “Was the HRT responsible for my sexual attraction changing from females to males?” Of course we are much more than just the orientation of our sexual urges but this seems to be the main “bone of contention” in the whole inner gender expression question.
In my previous male existence I felt all my life that I had to conform a form of behaviour that was consistent to how society perceived I should behave. This was done to please others and to “fit” in. It was only after discovering the “pleasures of the flesh” that I found any benefit to what nature had given me. So the next 30 years were spent consoling myslef with being genderless in order to conform and to reap the “benefits” (so to speak) of living as a “male”. (Yes, even now in todays society, males have a privellaged existence)
I learned from a young age the difference between how I felt and how I “should” appear to feel. This is not so important in todays terms depending on what type of family you are raised in. There are still parents who engage in the gender dichotomy parenting styles so there are still gender diverse children not being able to develop their “natural” gender expression.
So begs the question……. “Does the reaction to HRT indicate something about one’s inner gender?” Did I actually have any reaction to HRT itself or did I just finally have permission to express who I have always felt I was?
Was I actually attracted to females before or just filling a role that I believed I should be seen to be doing? Am I attracted to males now that I am female as that is what I should be seen to be doing?
Do I just have permission to be me now as I always should have been or was I “changed” by HRT? Or am I just conforming yet again to another of societies perceived normalities?
I have realised that I do not have the answer. I am far more comfortable being the person that I am now than the person I tried to be for so long. HRT has helped me achieve that. It was easier saying that the HRT changed me, especially when it came to sexual attraction, but I think it has always been the case that I was attracted to some males and some females. I am able to perform sexually as a female and THAT conforms to how I have always seen myself in my own mind. Performing as a male was always a “means to an end” and never correct in my own minds eye.
I am also able to interact with other people now in a manner which is comfortable for me. I was never comfortable in my previous existence. I was putting on an act to fulill the illusion that I was born into. I was never able to express myself in a manner which would not have “exposed” who I felt I was inside even down to the most intimate of relationships. It was always a balance of what others could accept of me.
Transitioning gave me permission to express externally who I am. HRT gave me the freedom to “feel” whatever came naturally. Am I not “essentially” a woman inside? I NEVER felt like a “woman trapped in a mans body”. I have always maintained that I am essentially a person. A human being. Neither male nor female. I exist. But now I have the freedom to express how I feel and I express far more female traits than male.
Maybe I was never really attracted to females, just attracted to what was expected of me with the benefit of being rewarded with the final pleasures that those interactions can bring. I know I can appreciate beauty in male or female form. I know I am not attracted to the female form in a sexual way, but am I attracted to the male form in a sexual way? My body responds to stimulation – does that matter whether it is from a male or female? I prefer it to come from my partner and have no interest in seeking out pleasures from anyone else and he is male. I have always only saught out pleasure from my partners but towards the end of my male existence could not get any reaction from my “appendage” which only resulted in frustration for all concerned.
In the end, I do not have an answer. But, I do not need one. I am happy in my own skin now. I am happy in my relationships with my partner and others around me. Was it the HRT which caused such profound emotional changes in me? I would like to think so. I did experience profound changes around the time I started HRT. Whether or not they were a result of the HRT or just finally learning that I could express my true inner gender (awakening) I do not have the answer for. The people around me complained that I was very difficult to live with for a while corresponding with commencing HRT. But I was also dealing with a lot of adjustments I was having to make in my own approach to life as well.
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Quote:Wow. Good question.
I’ll second that & also say Wow, good reply Portia.
A/A asked; Does the reaction to HRT indicate something about one’s inner gender?
I’m in a bit of a bind with this thread. I really want to reply but am lacking in two key areas.
1. I am not currently undertaking HRT.
2. I have very limited experience with those who are.I can’t speak as a subject or an observer.
I propose that I can possibly enter the equation as a ‘control’ subject. ( If this turns out to be an incorrect approach, please feel free to pull my post).A year ago when I first came to understand that my ‘difference’ could be explained by transgender concepts, I set about documenting as much as possible by way of forum entries & a personal journal. I also within a very short space of time understood that Real Life Experience (RLE) may become a requirement further down the track, so I set about undertaking it voluntarily & without any intervention from a Psych. Additionally, I asked quite a diverse group of people to ‘monitor’ me. Just simple observation within our usual day to day contact.
A/A wrote;
Quote:So if Felicity’s test is accepted as valid, then the clear conclusion is:
The majority of those on HRT are not essentially women inside – just waiting (as Felicity put it) for estrogen to awaken them.
Or putting it more bluntly, most of those who describe themselves as a woman born into the wrong body are oversimplifying the situation.In the majority of instances, when I have told people who knew me as a man, that I am Tg, they were/are not particularly surprised. Essentially this is because they saw & understood my ‘sensitive & emotional’ manner & apparently incongruent pursuits, along with my at times androgynous (or highly expressive) presentation as indicators of my indistinct gender anyway. Neither I nor them would have explained it that way prior but it is obvious to us now.
I have said before that I don’t feel as a man or a woman particularly. If pressed to choose I would actually say I feel un-gendered, with a preference that others who require that I have a gender see me as ‘with the girls’, definitely not with the ‘real men’.Portia wrote;
Quote:So begs the question……. “Does the reaction to HRT indicate something about one’s inner gender?” Did I actually have any reaction to HRT itself or did I just finally have permission to express who I have always felt I was?My experience so far without HRT leads me towards thinking that ‘I just finally have permission to express who I have always felt I was’.
There seems so far to be an endless array of situations where I stop & think ‘I wouldn’t have done that or said that before’. With no HRT to attribute this to, I can only therefore assume that as I am now presenting as ‘with the girls’, that I can ‘allow’ myself to express who I really am & what I really feel. I don’t just assume that, I actually believe it. Due to my personal approach I will endeavour to stay open minded about the reasons, I can however discount HRT at the moment.Portia wrote;
Quote:Do I just have permission to be me now as I always should have been or was I “changed” by HRT? Or am I just conforming yet again to another of societies perceived normalities?Quote:I am also able to interact with other people now in a manner which is comfortable for me. I was never comfortable in my previous existence. I was putting on an act to fulill the illusion that I was born into.I am currently asking myself the same questions & making the same observations but without reference to HRT.
It is becoming likely that I will (if possible & not advised otherwise) undertake HRT. If that occurs then I am (at this point in time) happy to be a guinea pig, should the right questions be able to be asked & the observations be able to be made.
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An interesting topic
I have no personal experience with HRT but would offer the following contributions:
Firstly there is little doubt that sex hormones (principally Tesosterone, Oestrogen and Progesterone) have significant behavioural effects both in humans and also in animals where one assumes there is no internal concept of “gender”.
HOWEVER I have not looked at the doses of various HRT hormones used and how they relate to those typically used both documented and undocumented in humans and animals. Typically the doses used in animals are monotherapy with high doses so the effects may not be comparable to HRT in humans where doses are typically smaller and multidrug therapy.
From what I have read on US forums (where they just have a larger population base so more experience) the use of a “HRT trial” is generally no longer considered to be a requirement for diagnosis of GID and consequent “definition” of transsexual. Indeed there are some who argue that in the abscence of appropriate and careful assessment from a qualified and experienced gender therapist that trial HRT may actually confuse the issue of a diagnosis of TS.
Equally though it is undeniable that those who are TS transitioned almost universally report a feeling of “calmness” and “completeness” once they start HRT, well before any physical changes occur.
My personal opinion is that the response to HRT does not indicate anything about ones true gender. HOWEVER I do believe that those individuals who are TS will respond to HRT. The distinction may seem subtle but is important. For example there is a certain heart medication when given to most animals will increase activity level and exercise ability IRRESPECTIVE of whether that animal has heart disease. However animals that truly do have heart disease will always respond to this particular drug.
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Gender physiology is what the inner gender is in my simplistic view . There are in genetic terms two sexual gender expressions male and female, some animals exhibit both female and male attributes and are call hermaphrodite but this is still male female. Some animals are sterile female some are sterile male yet other can transform from one sex to the other.
Now still being simplistic all of the variety of physical expressions of gender and the then resultant behaviour of the individuals are controlled via hormones. This is no personal opinion it is just science. The study of genetics has lead to a divergence from genetics called epigenetics. This area of study reveals how environmental influence changes the expression of genetic code.
I just wanted to give that brief before saying the following so my rational is contextually understood. Our psychological expressions of who we are is a complex combination of genetics, epigenetics, environment, psychology and hormones. Hormones are the control mechanism the body uses to function the are capable chemical keys that open all sorts of doors. To believe that the ingestion of hormones contrary ones normal hormones will not make a change is an inconceivable belief. The function of hormones is such that it must influence psychology as well as physiology in order to get a result. Example adrenaline result fight or flight response is best known but another is the nesting shown by females when hormones indicating birth are in the blood.
If you experience nothing it is likely more about psychology than hormones in that, you don’t recognize the difference or that your expression of you psychology was already out of kilter with your hormones. The psychology of gender is influenced by everything we experience, to question a personal view of ones psychology should be left to experts with intimate knowledge of the individual.
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Hi,
Hormones that were not of my body or added later had no bearing on who i am as a person. im not a trans person so why would hormones change me , they did not because im intersexed, so as being some what different there would not be any changes concerning my mind or much of my body .
my own hormones did more for me than any i took some years later,
from conception it was programed what i would be not some weeks later as some seem to persist in thinking its determed so how my hormones work was set at that conception time,
Our own hormones do & can change , this of cause is with in the intersexed as we have found out . so from birth if you like i i would have the mind of a female & there was never a ? about that some of us of cause dont have all our parts as a normal female does hence our differences, & any added synthic hormones , wont change what we are as refered to our brains.
Of cause im not going into all the details concerning those of us who are intersex its just a little to say , we are different thats all.
…noeleena…
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Quote:Hormones that were not of my body or added later had no bearing on who i am as a person. im not a trans person so why would hormones change me , they did not because im intersexed, so as being some what different there would not be any changes concerning my mind or much of my body .I’m not sure that the blanket exclusion of intersex people from discussions about gender identity is valid. Intersex and Transgender are widely held to be separate issues – being one does not carry any implications about the other.
Quote:People who have intersex conditions have anatomy that is not considered typically male or female. Most people with intersex conditions come to medical attention because doctors or parents notice something unusual about their bodies. In contrast, people who are transgendered have an internal experience of gender identity that is different from most people.[ul]http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender[/ul]
I’m not sure what Noeleena’s background is, and don’t wish to pry into it.
So I will discuss the concept of being intersex in deliberately general terms.The fact that one was born intersex does not determine if one is or isn’t transgender. We all can adopt an internal gender identity irrespective of any ambiguity in our sex. Or putting it the other way – being medically diagnosed intersex does not determine if one is or isn’t transgender.
I understand that in many cases the reason intersex people take HRT is not connected with their gender, but is rather a medical necessity to re-enforce their chosen sex and avoid medical complications. ( http://www.isna.org/faq/hrt_sousa ). In these cases, if the internal gender identity aligns perfectly with the chosen physical sex then one would not expect to see behavioural changes as a result of HRT. Or at least no more change that would be observed in a genetic woman taking HRT post-menopause.
But if internal gender identity is challenged by taking HRT we may or may not see behavioral changes as a result. Just as we have observed in the non-intersex population.
Whether the existence or not of observed behavioral change tells us anything about gender is what many have already debated on this thread.
I argue that this debate is equally valid irrespective of whether a person is intersex or is born anatomically unambiguously male or female..
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Hi,
I think i should have said as well that one is both male / female i dont think as a male or female or ether way compleatly, I cant say im all female or all male ,
Iv never known what its like to be male or to be female, i can not seperate ether, & really i dont have a clue how to express that.
You see if i were asked , whats it like being a male a mind blank would be my answer, i dont know, now to be a female i know whats inside of me yet i cant really answer that ether, not truthfuly so external meds wont change who i am. or what i am mind you i dont have to prove it ether way, or even try.
…noeleena…
