Empathy and the woman inside

[JaneS]

There are so many issues considered within the original post in this topic that I find that I am only able to respond to a couple that particularly strike me. I will perhaps consider Chloe’s well stated reply at a later time.

My view comes about, as it should, from personal observation and experience. I’m not so sure that I’d go so far as to say that “I feel like a woman inside” for as Chloe suggests we are who we are. I am the person I have developed to be, with all the positive and negative emotions within. As some have stated to, or about me, I’m a “part-timer”, a “wannabe” – a cross dresser who adopts feminine attire and appearance to enhance my own inner peace. I cross dress for myself and I have no illusions that I ‘pass’ as a female. Nevertheless I feel I can make something of a contribution to this discussion.

Quote:

The lady I was talking with paused and then said with some conviction that to her, being a woman meant being sensitive to the needs and feelings of others.

I find this an interesting comment but wonder if what she meant was that being sensitive to the needs and feelings of others is a desirable characteristic for ‘women’ rather than a defining one. I also wonder if she meant open displays of sensitivity. I too have met genetic women who display little empathy towards others. In some professional circumstances such displays can actually cause problems for the woman involved. It doesn’t mean though that that woman does not have said empathy towards others. Sometimes it is necessary for them to hide such feelings.

At the same time I have met and worked with many ‘men’ who (perhaps) don’t feel a need to don a dress and yet are most sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. Are they then ‘women’ without their knowledge? How often have we heard someone referred to as “a big girl”, usually offensively, because they display empathy? It doesn’t make them so no matter how ignorant others may be.

Quote:

Actually it turns out that the issue of gender differences in empathy is quite controversial. And as is frequently the case there are academic studies that point either way. I wonder if the confusing results arise in part from the researchers focussing on the physical sex of their subjects rather than their inner gender!

Very true. Perhaps we should strive to focus more on humanity rather than a gender/sex-based approach. Why do we need to allocate feelings either way?

Quote:

I observed that sometimes transgender people completely ignore the needs of others when meeting in a social context. After my thoughts were reinforced by some ‘complaints’ from partners I wrote a post titled “Did I tell you about ME”. In the article I commented on this apparent lack of empathy:

Quote:
Well imagine you sit down next to a total stranger in a restaurant and are looking forward to having a pleasant evening’s conversation. But instead all the stranger can talk about is themselves! They provide you with an unwanted and unsolicited description of their life, possibly their medical history, and even details of surgery. Worse still, at every attempt to change the subject to something of mutual interest they keep returning to their pet subject – “Me”.

I think it is unwise, and certainly unfair, to suggest that some transgender people lack empathy because of a need to talk about ‘me’. Especially for those who are closeted or who are unable to discuss their transgenderism with family or friends, meetings in a transgender environment can be the only time they have a chance to express their feelings, to seek assurances that they are not somehow ‘odd’ or that they are not doing anything ‘wrong’. Without sounding trite, to suggest that someone who needs such assurances is narcissistic actually shows a lack of empathy. Perhaps they are simply insecure. Many of us are/were. I also do not believe that their need to talk about themselves means that they are not sensitive to the needs of others.

Quote:

I was surprised to find that a search for the use of the word “sorry” in such a context yielded just 80 posts out of over 14,000. And of those, only 7 could be generously construed as expressing remorse about the effects of some prior posting. Of course it could be that no one hurts or offends anyone in our forums – but I know that is far from the case. And maybe it is only my generation who use the word “sorry” to express remorse. But such an infrequent use doesn’t point to a lot empathy in the online community.

As you mention, without the other aspects of human interaction like facial expressions and gestures it can be hard to gauge the true feelings behind an author’s post. I think we’ve all written something at some stage that was “taken the wrong way”. In my own case I know at times I’ve said something publically that has caused hurt or offence but I have dealt with that by way of personal messages. I considered further public comment had the potential to inflame rather than placate so a straight one-on-one was how I chose to resolve the issues. Personal responses also enable direct interaction without the often helpfully-intended input from others that can add to confusion. As for “sorry”, did you also search for “apologise”, “regret” and maybe even “recant”?

I’ll finish up with a final comment.

Quote:

If true femininity rests on being sensitive to needs and feelings of others, surely it would also manifest itself as putting the needs and feelings of others above one’s one.

I suggest that throughout history there have been myriad examples of people putting the needs and feelings of others above their own. Indeed, in the crucible of warfare it is the characteristic that oft attracts the most praise and recognition. I would hesitate to suggest that those so notably recognised are feminine in any way by virtue of their actions. A quote that comes to mind that I have always remembered (though sadly I can’t recall the source) is “I held his hand until he died. It was important that he felt not alone at that time. What more can someone do for a mate?” Based on the assertion that “true femininity rests on being sensitive to needs and feelings of others” it seems that femininity might thus exist even in the dirt, mud and blood-encrusted field of war.

I would rather consider that empathic beings are neither feminine nor masculine but rather ‘human’. If a person wants to talk about his/herself then that’s fine by me. If they are also willing to listen to me talk about myself then that too is fine by me. Maybe that is compromise.

[Adrian]

I am unable to complete moderation of this topic for the moment (being lost in a Win7 “upgrade”). It is unfortunate that the serious thought I put into this article only attracted thinly veiled attacks by some members. This is a situation that I cannot reconcile with my involvement in running the web site. I will fully document my reasons for the actions I have taken in due course and will then unlock this topic for a second attempt at gathering feedback.

[Adrian]

Ok – let’s try again.

My post is I know is quite confronting.
It makes some points that I think we would all prefer are not true.
But that doesn’t make them not true.

If my post makes you angry then perhaps it is best that you do not comment initially. It is my expectation that if it is, as I suspect, close to the truth then it will be uncomfortable for some. It was not my intent to distress anyone, but on the other hand I feel we have to address the elephant in the room if we are going to improve the health of our community.

I’ve posted the article in the forums so I can hear as many views as possible about the points I raised. But please stick to commenting on one or more of the three points. Personally I don’t think the three points are strongly connected…but it seemed more compelling to present them all in one post.

a) Empathy and the real woman
– That thinking, and therefore by extension behaving, like a woman, might rest on a heightened awareness of the needs and feelings of others.

b) Empathy in the Transgender Community
– That there is little evidence of empathy in the forums
– That in real life we can be focused on ourselves in social contexts
– That in relationships we may not be willing compromise to respect the feelings of others

c) Elusive Empathy
– That the lack of empathy may stem from a tendency to narcissistic behavior

[Anonymous]

I don’t know that empathy is connected to expressing oneself as female. From my part, I don’t deal with the emotion of empathy really well. I have tried over the years to put myself in others shoes and try to relate to what they are going through. only to lead to my first thought of . ‘You deserve the life you get because you chose it to be that way”

I guess we are all in charge of our own destinies rather than what fate has to deal us.

Does being empathic relate to my feminism as Bridgette? I don’t know.. Perhaps it’s because I’ve never mentored anyone dressed en-femme or tried to relate to them as Bridgette..

I can only guess its connected to how much you immerse yourself in the person you really want to be.

[Elizabeth]

Empathy is a human virtue expressed by both male and female to the trials and tribulations of others. When I was being infused with the basics of counselling I believe the teachers endeavoured to teach us empathy. How wrong; you are empathatic or you ‘aint. I suspect it has little to do with sensativity of the individual.
As others have said, my views on empathy are gleaned by observation of individuals, not by scientific research or reading others views on the subject, after all it is only their opinion. Empathy is not the perogotive of females, it is the perogotive of humans as a whole.
How many ‘normal’ menbers of the community empaphise with the transgender community, not many I’ll be bound because they believe it is a choice of ours. Do you empahise with the child dying of cancer? of course you do; it’s normal. Let’s put empathy in the right perspective.
I don’t feel like woman inside, I feel like me because I cannot for the life of me know what it feels like to be a woman inside. I possess empathy, yes, and I try to put myself in their shoes, whilst keeping one foot firmly planted on the ground, it’s part of the basics of conselling.

[Anonymous]

I’m with Liz here, empathy is a human virtue and one that comes alive for different reasons in different people. I don’t think though that empathy would help anyone think or act more like a woman.

Quote:

a) Empathy and the real woman
– That thinking, and therefore by extension behaving, like a woman, might rest on a heightened awareness of the needs and feelings of others.

I have spent many hours watching people in my life and the one thing I am sure of is that there is no hard and fast rule about feminine behaviour. They are all different, the spectrum within female behaviour is just as varied as the spectrum of life.

Dress like a woman and just be yourself and I reckon you will fit in somewhere, observing feminine behaviour will only make you a copy of whoever you are observing, and somewhere along the way you will lose the most important thing. Yourself!

And as for having a heightened awareness of the needs and feelings of others, well that is an individual form of empathy that only someone who really wants to can use. Most of us don’t really care about the needs of others unless they are very important to us.

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c) Elusive Empathy
– That the lack of empathy may stem from a tendency to narcissistic behaviour

I think that you can have empathy in one area of your life and still be narcissistic in another. I don’t think that one quality is possessed at the expense of the other.

As for the other point, I won’t comment on it because the evidence is clear to anyone who haunts these forums.

[Anonymous]

I will address my replies based on Amanda’s summarised points:
a) As others have pointed out, empathy is not a particularly female characteristic. HOWEVER I personally agree with the expressed opinion that IN GENERAL women seem to express empathy to a greater extent than men. Does that make it a feminine characteristic? I believe that it is a desirable characteristic whether feminine or not.
b) I suspect this issue is a little bit confused. I would agree that expressions of regret and apologies (though I agree with Jane that perhaps the search could be expanded) on cursory glance appear few and far between. I don’t think this is isolated to the TG community however and I suspect you would find similar results if you conducted similar analysis of non TG forums. I think it is also worthwhile noting that a highly empathic individual is far less likely to find themselves needing to apologise outright as they already see their “opponents” point of view.
c) I know some TS who will say that you have to be narcissistically self obsessed in order to survive transition. I don’t know as I have not transitioned, nor do I feel I’m likely to. I think that yes, there is a tendency in by CD / TS / TG’s to exhibit a high degree of selfishness (polite version of narcissism ). I know I’ve done it. And yes I think it hurts other people. HOWEVER you must love yourself before you can love others. The individual who truly loves and knows themselves can then truly love others, and that is where I feel real empathy lies.

[Anonymous]

I thought when I read this there’s something positive to be said for the idea. I’m of the opinion that the empathy in women is part of the nurturing instinct , after all it is critical for a mother to have a strong feeling of empathy to properly nurture a new born. If you wish to think about it women who are not empathetic are usually described as hard nosed and cold. Men who express lots of empathy are described as sooks and woosies. The terms I use here have been seen and heard in the common vernacular often over the years.

From that I would suggest the common veiw in society is that a strong expression of empathy are a female trait. After all males that don’t show much of it are seen as typical blokes. When I reflect on myself at six years of age I sided with and became friends with a child who was being bullied by my then friends, I felt empathy and acted on it. If that was the start of my journey of difference I can’t say but my feelings of empathy have continued through many events in life. .

Empathy and the written word are not always easy to express. It’s a known fact that the discussion of matters online often lead to miss understanding and often trouble when emotions are high , for the written word can come over quite cold.

As to the lack of empathy shown by some transgender people this may be a little bit controversial. The experience of growing up male may play a bigger part than people think. Parents raise boys to be less empathetic, less of the awah I understand and more of the grrr I don’t care. Nurture programs the nature and it works for those who fit the gender binary but for those who don’t it can be an issue.

[Adrian]

Thank you to Jane, Bridgette, Liz, Pamela, Adina, and Kristyana for sharing your thoughts on Empathy. I appreciate the feedback so far, though, once again, I realise with hindsight that presenting all three ideas in one posts doesn’t make it easy to comment. So let’s take a summary section by section.

Empathy and the real woman
There is general agreement I think with the position I made that that empathy is not a uniquely female characteristic. The argument I presented does not rest on empathy being only shown by women. The fact that there are examples we can quote of empathy in genetic males comes as no surprise – but it doesn’t illuminate a quest for any essence of femaleness.

We do have differing views on whether empathy would help anyone think or act more like a woman. I side with Kristyana when she wrote: “ Women who are not empathetic are usually described as hard nosed and cold”, and with Jane when she pointed out that men who display empathy are called out as “a big girl”. I personally find it hard to separate the societal role of women in nurturing and caring for children with the need for empathy as a talent to support that role. Many of us, in surviving a life of trying to fit in as a “typical bloke” may have learnt to suppress any empathy we might feel – a behaviour that perhaps we find hard to break out of. As Liz said – empathy can’t really be taught – but perhaps with some of us it could be “rediscovered”.

Of course, since we apparently have difficulty defining what it is to be a woman, it was always going to be hard to agree on what attributes help one be a woman! There is I suspect some merit in the suggestion that perhaps the woman some of us aspire to be is not the textbook feminine female. I agree with Jane that we need to focus more on humanity rather than a gender/sex-based view of the world – but unfortunately the MtF transgender community seems to be built on ill-defined concepts of “man” and “woman”. I can assure Liz and others that I was not suggesting that everyone in our community considers they are a woman, but the desire to express a more feminine gender is common. If we often desire to be “more of a woman” then I think it does no harm to tackle the conundrum of ‘what is a woman”.

Before we leave the views of genetic women to one side, Jane questioned if the woman that I quoted was describing a desirable characteristic for ‘women’ rather than a defining one. I can only reply by saying that, as it was expressed to me, it was both a primary defining characteristic and also was not a passive attribute. I have asked subsequently two other genetic women – and all agreed it was for them an important characteristic – though there was not agreement as to whether it was empathy actively displayed or internally felt. I acknowledge it was a very small sample size, of people who were talking with me as a transgender. Its value to me is less as a scientific fact – but more as an opening into an interesting and I hoped illuminating line of thought about our community.

Where next? The feedback hasn’t changed my view that thinking like a woman might rest on a heightened awareness of the needs and feelings of others – but I can also accept Adina’s view that it might just be a desirable (rather than essential) characteristic. So perhaps the challenge is still to define what is meant by “like a woman”. I will perhaps explore the issue of “what is a woman” in a new thread – as it is far bigger than the specific issue of empathy and narcissism that I moved onto in this post.

Empathy in the transgender community
The issue of the visibility of empathy resulted in a number of interesting comments.
Firstly I accept the view that in professional circumstances empathy is not necessarily reflected in actions, and as Jane observed, such displays can actually cause problems for the woman involved. I have learnt (and then keep forgetting) that displaying empathy in my role as webmistress invites problems, and find it is best not to embrace the challenge of thinking in the shoes of 600+ other people, most of whom one has only met through the internet! However, the three scenarios I chose to test for empathy (internet, social, relationships) are not professional situations – there is no reason for not showing empathy in these circumstances.

My first scenario – the forums – does, I agree, tell us more about the way people use the internet than their empathy. As Kristyana observed “Empathy and the written word are not always easy to express”. But the forums are a place where I have seen people hurt, and so it was where I started my exploration. Searching for “sorry” was, I acknowledge, a weak surrogate for empathy. But when I look at other words such as apologise I find them often being used to obscure a lack of feeling – as in the posts that say “If this post offends then I apologise” (but I’m going to post anyway!!) – probably more a defensive style of posting to ensure compliance with the site ACP than a reflection of empathy.
Kristyana also questioned if those who felt empathy for others would ever find themselves needing to apologise. And Adina noted that “a highly empathic individual is far less likely to find themselves needing to apologise outright as they already see their opponents point of view“. This is I think a much more robust way of viewing empathy online – if one sees conflict and hurt then perhaps one can assume that there is a lack of empathy in the first place. I have no problem identifying so much that is said in an uncaring way on forums – and, yes, I do the same thing. I think the first scenario looks increasingly like a proven case of lack of displayed empathy!

In the second scenario I referred to observed behaviour in a social context.
Jane felt that is was unfair to suggest that some transgender people lack empathy because of a need to talk about ‘me’. But my scenario wasn’t “meetings in a transgender environment” – it was socialising in the real world. Of course it is fine to seek support at support groups or when meeting someone for a coffee and a chat. But the examples I used to build the second scenario were taken from restaurant meals and large social events – where perfect strangers were present.
Although as “one of us”, Jane accepts that “if a person wants to talk about his/herself then that’s fine” – it does not follow that all members of society are so inclined. We need to distinguish between other gender diverse people (who MAY be prepared to offer assurance to the insecure) and the general public (who probably won’t). It takes empathy to understand when “ME” is an acceptable subject of conversation. And I don’t agree that I’m showing a lack of empathy in pointing this out.

In the third scenario I linked a self-centred reluctance to compromise with the failure of so many transgender relationships. I am a very lucky person having a supportive family who acknowledge my gender diversity, but I know that I am in a small minority. These forums contain many stories of broken relationships and few, if any, recipes for a better outcome. In this context I’m surprised how little comment the third scenario has attracted so far. My observations, validated by socialising regularly with several other happily transgender-challenged couples, are perhaps a bit uncomfortable for those seeking to redefine their relationships on their terms alone. I think we should explore this scenario more to see if there are indeed clues to how we can improve the currently poor outcomes we experience as a community.

I see still strong hints of a lack of empathy in all three scenarios. Perhaps Pamela is close to explaining why when she wrote: “Most of us don’t really care about the needs of others unless they are important to us”. I think that pretty accurately summarises the lack of empathy I observed.

Finally Liz asked “How many ‘normal’ menbers of the community empaphise with the transgender community”. I agree that there are not many, but I disagree about the reason. I think that it is very hard to care for the feelings of someone who doesn’t seem to reciprocate. I think the problem is one where we can and should take the first steps.

Elusive Empathy
This section is where I drew a connection between lack of empathy and narcissistic behaviour. Adina was the only person brave enough to tackle this issue, acknowledging the tendency for us to all be selfish.

I have posted my thoughts on the split personalities that some people embrace when they first come out in the Transgender community. Pamela felt that “…you can have empathy in one area of your life and still be narcissistic in another.” And it is true, that if your life is spent moving from one persona to another, they can, and often do, have different psychologies. But I am strongly hinting here that the persona which expresses our true gender is more likely to be the narcissistic one which lacks visible empathy.

Of course if we identify with the characteristics of selfishness then one might look for an excuse why it is OK in the context of being transgender. Aida suggested two possible ways we might view narcissism as being OK.

Firstly it could be that you have to be “narcissistically self obsessed in order to survive transition”. I have known many transsexuals on their difficult journey and I believe that their frequent self-obsession is a cause of subsequent difficulties. Narcisim can lead to idealised over-valuation, to self-preoccupation, and to harsh and unjustified judgement of others. All are things that are unlikely to endear one to those who could help along the way.

Aidina’s second possible excuse is that “you must love yourself before you can love others.” This is a well worn cliché – and in the sense that it encourages the development of self-confidence it is valid and relevant in our community. But the extension to assume that loving oneself (narcisim) is something that should be cultivated before, and as a pre-requisite for, feeling for others is I think questionable.
“Loving oneself”, in my mind, is about projecting confidence and self worth. It isn’t about selfishly ignoring others.

Once again, searching on Google, I find that the issue of narcisim and narcistic rage is far bigger than the aspects I touched upon in my post. So again, perhaps a separate thread is needed to explore this aspect of our nature.

My apologies for such a long summing up – but I felt the quality of the comments so far deserved it. The process of writing my thoughts and hearing feedback is important to me – and I value hearing different views.

[Anonymous]

A good summing up I think Amanda. I would make one point and I think it is because I did not explain myself well.

My intention when I stated that one must love oneself before one can truly love others was that the process of getting to a point where you can love yourself can at times be self obsessed and narcissistic. I don’t think it has to be but it often is. This is why teenagers are often viewed as being selfish I think. What we tend to see on forums is many individuals going through this process of coming to terms and loving themselves. That is why they are here because they have all these questions. That is why I suspect we may see somewhat of a biased sample of individuals who, with time, may well develop considerable empathy (at least I hope I do!) but at present can exhibit some fairly uncharitable behaviour.