employment problems with trans intersexed

[Anonymous]

Hi Chelsea,
before I try to answer your questions I think it would be useful to identify myself & my background.

I am in transition & present as a woman full time but only since late July 2012.

I am currently a business owner who has employed many & varied people over a 20 year period; including those who can walk straight into a job & those who require assistance of varying types. From trainees & apprentices to those who have experience, training & qualifications above & beyond my own.

My own work experience ranges from casual labouring through to highly specialised consultation & management. Indoor & outdoor work in both the public & private sectors, within the building & landscaping, hospitality, agriculture & horticulture, visual arts & welfare industries.

My welfare related employment included two different & very specific jobs.
One was as a teacher of Hmong refugees who were being relocated from a refugee camp in Thailand to Fresno, California, (the same peoples who were the subject of the movie Gran Torino). My role with those people was to understand what difficulties they would encounter as refugees in America & provide appropriate training. A substantial part of the six month daily training & preparation they undertook related to work readiness & employment.

My other role was as a specialist employment counsellor with the now defunct Commonwealth Employment Service (a forerunner to Centrelink). In 1990 I was a foundation member of a small unit within the framework of the CES, known as the SSC (Special Service Centre). Our task was to assist any person who was deemed as especially disadvantaged, to find & maintain employment, either directly or through training.

Sincerely, I don’t wish for this to be about me but believe some background may help.

Your questions;

Quote:

Ok I want to know who out there transitioned and has had problems getting employment ???

As a business owner we can assume I am employed…but…my income is not in any way guaranteed. The biggest fear I faced when deciding to go public related to my income, as sales in my business rely on my face to face contact with my customers. There is no way that I can know how many sales I don’t make because of my gender presentation but I’m certain there will be some.

Quote:

I know theres anti discrimination laws but employers say no not suitable whos herd this ???

Not speaking in regard to Tg issues, I can say that employers always have & always will dismiss a person who they (rightly or wrongly) believe is unsuitable in their business. Unfortunately, anti discrimination laws are very difficult to enact & so their effectiveness is limited.

Quote:

How did u gain employment ? What area of employment ??

I will give some concrete ideas later, so please don’t be upset by these next comments.
There is no special way to find employment other than looking for it & approaching prospective employers. Likewise the type of employment another Tg person has is not (necessarily) relevent to your situation.

Quote:

I just wanna here how you guys n girls have got over that discrimination to get a job….

Whenever any of us make a decision of any sort we ‘discriminate’. We choose one thing over another. In making that choice we weigh up the ‘pros & cons’, we usually make our decisions based on a number of different factors.
Employers are no different (I am not justifying the discrimination that is being asked about). When they make a choice between one person & another, they will choose the person that they believe will benefit their business. If being Tg is seen by them as a negative then you need to impress them in other ways.

Quote:

I also wanna know how you dealt with centrelink employment agencys.

I won’t suggest that every person who works in these agencies has equal abilities & levels of care but I will say that you need to be clear & accurate in explaining your circumstances. No matter how frustrated you may be, always try to be polite. Many times when we were sincerely trying to help people they would be rude or aggressive toward us. It made it very difficult to continue caring about them.
By the same token, you have rights as a human being. If you feel that you are not being treated well or not being helped properly, then ask (politely) to speak to a more senior officer or the manager.

I don’t know what facilities exist today within or associated with the employment agencies. If you haven’t already done so, I think it would be sensible to make sure that the people who are supposed to be helping you, understand that you feel that being Tg is an impediment to you finding employment. Then ask them if there is any special counselling you can access to help identify what may be preventing you finding employment (other than being Tg). Also ask if they have access to an Occupational Psychologist. Don’t be put off by the ‘psychologist’ label, their job is to help you in regard to employment, not any other aspects of your life. My job involved this aspect of assisting disadvantaged people.

(Negative) discrimination does exist, we will never change that. Many different people are subject to discrimination, some people will overcome it & others won’t.
Our ability to find employment depends on many different factors, some we have control over & others we don’t.
*The first step is to actually want a job – it seems you have that sorted.
*Beyond that you need to know what skills & qualities you have.
*Do your expectations of a job match your skills & qualities?
*If they don’t are you willing or able to improve your situation to better match your expectations?
*Do you know what an employer expects of an employee & can you offer it?

Also, sometimes to gain employment we need to compromise what we want & are prepared to do. It’s not fun & sometimes it even feels demeaning but that’s the reality of the world. (I am speaking from experience as a previously unemployed person, an employer & a former counsellor.)

I am in no doubt that being Tg is a barrier to gaining employment, there are however other possibilities that could by themselves or in conjunction hamper ones success.

Chelsea, if you would like to contact me via email please feel free to do so. I’ve necessarilly not been specific with my answers as I don’t actually know your circumstances.

I hope this helps in some way.

[Anonymous]

Moderator

Quote:

I have split the discussions on this topic into two parts.

Postings that reflect the original question about others experiences and advice for obtaining employment are in this thread.

The specific comments by Chelsea about her experience and focused advice she received are in her blog
here:

http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/FXXXXXXXX/5102-102&sid=1f8b9577edf8f7bc34de37428e5ab178

[Anonymous]

Hi , I have always earned my living in Sales and Management but realised if I transitioned I could not continue earning ! So I approached Centrelink for retraining in an Profession I would be accepted and they just wanted too put me on a Pension . So after complaining too Hierachy at Centrelink I got too do My Cert 3 in Aged Care and was aked too do my Nurseing Degree but declined as I still had a child at home too support . I now work in The Community supporting clients with Disability in Their Homes and also do Work Placement for Disabled ! I transitioned at work and I am totally accepted in my New Gender . I also have had major operations on my Spine but as far as I am concerned it has healed and is ancient history which I don’t need too Disclose ! Only I can disclose too people that I am Transgendered but Prefer too tell them I’mm Female and I like Women ! : ) I have helped other Girls Transitioning too get Cert 3 in Aged Care and they have gone on too other Areas in Industry including Kitchen ,Meal Preperation and full Nurseing Degree !
Regards Ella

[Anonymous]

Hi Chelsea

I am a manager in retail. I deal with the public a lot and also hire my own staff. As I transitioned with my current employer my gender status has never been a negative issue with regard to my employment.

It seems that you had an agenda in mind when you first asked the question above. Whether it was about confirming any preconceived ideas you may have had about the trans community and employers, or finding a way of confirming that your own gender status is the reason why you are finding getting a job being so difficult?

Reading your posts above give me some indication as to why you are having difficulty. But that is only my interpretation of what you have written. If you read them as an employer would, I am sure that you might find where some of your difficulties lie. I find that the written word is not always what we are trying to say.

Truthfully, if I had to choose between a potential employee who came to me for a job with any of the issues you raise (and I am not talking about your gender status) and someone who was better qualified or with less issues, of course I would choose them. With every “condition” you introduce, you further reduce yor attractiveness as a potential employee. It’s about stacking the odds.

I have found that there are a couple of ways we can be our own worst enemies. These “conditions” that you raise can serve 2 purposes. The real ones which need to be addressed in order to increase your attractiveness to potential employers. Then there are those “conditions” which are introduced to take away the blame that could be directed at ourselves for not being able to get a job.

But, to be realistic, I, or anyone else here, are not the people you approached about getting a job. We can only speculate. Only the people who interviewed you know the real reason why you weren’t hired. But, there are a lot of people out there looking for work. It is a lot easier when you are one of the few available. When there are lot’s of potential employees to pick from, you need to put your best case forward.

Get some counselling. Better your education. Try and get on better with the “gatekeepers”. Stop playing the victim. Make sure you are qualified for the jobs you are applying for. Easy things to say. Much harder to do.

Getting a job is hard to do. Holding on to a job is even harder. Getting a job after a period of unemployment is almost impossible.

You have to stop concentrating on all the reasons why you are having a hard time getting a job and find all the reasons why a prospective employer should hire you instead.

You need to muster up a highly positive attitude, highlight all the good aspects of who you are how they fit into the job you are applying for, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, make your prospective employer forget about considering anyone else for the position you are after because you are the ONLY perfect person for it.

[Elizabeth]

I’ve been reading this thread with much interest and Chelsea’s great difficulty in securing employment. The replies that have been forthcoming have been tremendous, however I found Portia’s reply most apt and to the point. If people looking for work and employment would follow Portia’s advice they would be on the road to gaining useful employment.

[Adrian]

Quote:

What I would like to know is how someone has gotten a job not transition on the job transitioning on the job is not the same as applying at say pizza hut !!!!

I think this is a good question. I have no personal experience, but I do have the benefit of many years watching the varying employment outcomes amongst those who decide to legally transition their birth sex.

The main issue I observe is that in today’s employment market prior experience is king. Granted a few qualifications don’t go amiss, but by and large employers will look to see if you have a past track record of effectively doing what they want done.

Unfortunately the popular desire to transition and then cover the tracks of one’s past ‘male’ life (stealth) is completely incompatible with maintaining a credible employment history. The very act of changing one’s name orphans all that past experience.

I know, in some professions where having the qualification is a ticket to play there are formal routes to change the name on your qualifications. But in the vast majority of cases where unskilled or semi-skilled work is sought the only options are to hide the prior experience – or to implicitly acknowledge one’s sex/name change during the application process. Neither of these options are good, and both open the applicant up to being silently discriminated against.

What concerns me is that to many this employment hurdle comes as a complete surprise – as they suddenly find that getting a job isn’t as straightforward as it was before. I wonder how much support is actually provided by those who guide and mentor transsexuals? The only advice I hear is to “transition on the job”? – great if it is possible but no help if it is not!

Certainly there are plenty of “good news” stories from those who change their name “on the job”.
But like Chelsea I would be interested to hear how those who didn’t transition on the job managed to fill the gaps in their employment history. Or are they all silently in stealth mode now and unable/unwilling to share their experiences?

[Anonymous]

Be appropriate for the position in all manors, experience and skills are often critical but the biggest and hardest thing to continue is to be positive , rejection is a point where you must reveiw the possible reasons , learn and then be positive and try again . If you believe employers do not discriminate you would be wrong that is exactly what they do with everyone. If you don’t suit the requirements they move on.

I have employed many people over the years and have always chosen those whom I believe will provide me with what I need . I’d say anyone who employs others is going to discriminate and when it comes to it there is no real answer to the bigotry that exists in society , even in a perfect world people will have other ideas.

Now I do not live fulltime as a woman and I know if I did I would suffer some consequence to my income . One because a woman would be discriminated against and two because I wouldn’t be a perfect presentation of a woman, people make there own choices that you can only hope to influence to your favour, but no law will ever change who people are inside .

I must say also that I chose to be self employed many years ago because I wanted to control my own destiny to some degree at least , and that is seriously the only way I know that you can. It is purely about being positive , developing skills , knowledge and self confidence.

Not something we all can do alone but effective help can be found if one is in the right frame of mind to look for it . Everything is impossible if you believe it so but truth is there are always possibilities out there if you want them. This is hopefully useful.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

The main issue I observe is that in today’s employment market prior experience is king. Granted a few qualifications don’t go amiss, but by and large employers will look to see if you have a past track record of effectively doing what they want done.

100% with you there… In my business you *have* to have employment history, if you don’t you are history…

Quote:

Unfortunately the popular desire to transition and then cover the tracks of one’s past ‘male’ life (stealth) is completely incompatible with maintaining a credible employment history. The very act of changing one’s name orphans all that past experience.

Personally I transitioned in the work place, and twice suffered extreme discrimination, first time from a manager, then the second time from a staff member as their manager. The first occasion HR was behind me 100%, however I broke down mentally. The second time, the staff member was a personal friend of the HR Director. I am now in a ¢150k/yr job and respected by all staff, especially my managers.

Tips for getting work in the first place, and in order of importance:

1/ Be honest!
2/ Be confident
3/ Talk about your experience and why they need you (not that you need the job)
4/ Do not talk about transition
5/ Do not talk about previous issues (in personal life or work life * )
6/ Do not talk about or refer to your personal life in respect to transition

* If asked give an air of ‘not caring’, answer their questions vaguely, but not evasively. ie, Its your business and they have no right knowing, but you are not aggressive or offended with the question.

If you are applying in a large company they will probably have you interviewed by several people, your manager, a staff member and someone from HR will talk to you about forms and references.

Everyone is likely to know, guess, or suspect you are transitioning, so if HR ask, be honest… Tell them that references will need to be asked for in your old name – unless you have already contacted your previous employers and told them of your transition (I had and it makes it a world easier.) Any HR person who wants to keep their job will ensure that you are treated as your preferred/presented gender. If you are not ‘stealth’ it is HIGHLY important that you are honest and confident. If you are not confident it can make someone think you are lying or hiding something, which in either case, you’re too much of a risk verses the next person to be interviewed.

Unless it’s a small company you will not normally talk to the ‘manager’ about your references, and therefore you will not need to tell the manager your previous name.

Government jobs, in all cases, do not talk to the manager about transition, they are not allowed to ask (HR may ask, but they will be very careful and considerate as they want to ensure you know what you need to do, they will not judge if they want to keep their position.) If they refer to transition with respect to security clearances, just say politely, ‘My transition will not affect my clearances, as I have nothing to hide.’

In ALL cases, if you are asked questions that make you uncomfortable politely decline (with a smile – even if you don’t feel like smiling), note time, place, person and weigh up after whether to report the person or to move to the next place. If in the extremely unlikely event (I know of it happening) you have any rude questions, or personal questions from the interviewer, remember what is said, ask to be excused and that “you don’t think the job is suitable” and find the company HR manager/director immediately and report *EXACTLY* what was said… Your chances of getting the job will not be affected negatively, and you will likely have another interview with a new person.

Be aware, the less education you have, the harder it is to get a job, regardless of transition, gender or any other factors, the higher skilled you are, the more likely you’ll be the person they want even if you forget everything above and totally screw up…

Best regards,

Michelle

Note: My choices of path when transitioned were not optional, I was forced in to being open and revealing my past for a number of reasons…

a/ I am specialist.
b/ Google for ‘Michelle Sullivan SORBS’ and you get my original name in about 57,000 pages… not something to hide.
c/ Security clearances require you don’t hide anything in your past (so that you can’t be blackmailed) … everyone had to know who I was originally.

Note 2: I am currently living in the most Catholic country of the world (Malta) where everyone knows everyone, and everyone knows I was male originally… Initially it was hard for somethings but not others… 3 years later, there are 10’s of people willing to put their freedom to protect me.. and the most unlikely you’d ever think… I am also known to the president of Malta, and several politicians (including the PM)… I am well known and protected by many of the local police… My secret in getting such good friends and getting on so well.. being me, being honest and open.. They value honesty more than ‘weirdness’ … many consider me ‘weird’ many do not understand what it means to be transgender, and there are no anti-discrimination laws in Malta over what the Eu has forced on them…

“Honesty is the best policy” has new meaning for me here…

[Anonymous]

Something I forgot which is VERY important…

If your paperwork says you are male. That is how you need to fill out forms.

If your paperwork has the birth name (ie you haven’t changed your name legally).. That is your name.

Do not try to get around that, you will fail, and you will not get the job.

If your paperwork is in your preferred gender, use it. If you have changed your name but not your gender paperwork you have to indicate it as on the paperwork.. eg, when I started I was Michelle Sullivan / Male… that was how I had to fill out HR documents.

When I went to GU, I filled out the Tax document as Male, and the HR doco as Female as was advised by their HR (legally I was still male) but on staff I was female… If unsure ask the HR department (not the manager/interviewer)…!

In Malta I am Female, still pre-op, but legally female – my passport was changed and so all my Identity documents in Malta have been issued as Female (here you cannot change your identity documents from male to female or female to male without a court order from the high court – and lots of publicity.) In Australia, my passport says, Male, but my medicare says female… go figure… When I get back to Aus, my birth cert will be changed so I will be able to change all my documents, but that’s another story… the important part is what is at the top – be honest….!

[Anonymous]

Hi Chelsea,
there have been many more replies here than is usual, in a short space of time.
Every person who has posted here appears to have your best interests in mind & some have spent considerable amounts of time thinking & writing to try & help you.

Quote:

I just haven’t seen to find help just criticism and people forcing me into jobs like nursing or aged care which I completely find uninterested

I hope you don’t think you are being criticised within this thread. If you do, I would suggest that you need to go back & reread ALL of what has been offered to you & think very carefully about the suggestions.
I do think you need to aware though, that almost all of your responses are either negative or indicate that you are unwilling to modify any aspect of your thoughts or actions.

There is a very wise old saying that I live by: ‘A WISE WILLOW BENDS WITH THE BREEZE’. What this saying suggests is that just like a willow tree, if you resist the natural forces around you, you will end up broken. If however you are prepared to BEND & not resist those inevitable forces, you are more likely to come through the situation unbroken.

Chelsea whether you are intersexed, transsexual, born overseas, an ex prisoner or any other person who may be discriminated against is not really the point. Being prepared to consider all possible jobs & is one way you can improve your chances of gaining employment. I have not always done work that interested me, some of it has been down right horrible but I (& many others) still did/do it.

I can clearly see that you are frustrated with your situation but you are coming across totally negative, even to those of us here who ARE on your side & DO understand the difficulties. If you come across that way to us, then what must the prospective employers be thinking.

You’ve shown that you can be positive:
It’s great that you have been so positive about Suzzannes offer & you were also positive about doing volunteer work. That open & positive approach is what you need to continue with.

Quote:

I like volunteer work idea how do I go about it I don’t know ???

I assume you have a case manager at the job agency? It would be a good idea to ask to have a meeting with your case manager & tell them that you have been talking to a lot of people about how to get a job. Tell the case manager that somebody suggested that volunteer work might be a good way of getting more experience & also it would help you feel better about yourself as well as helping other people. Ask them if you can do volunteer work without losing your benefits & can they help you find volunteer work. The sorts of places that do volunteer work include Meals on Wheels, St Vincent de Paul, the Salvation Army etc. There are many other organisations as well.
Another way to find out about volunteer work is to do a Google search. I found a site called http://www.volunteeringcenralcoast.org.au.

Quote:

I just need a job how do I cover up the past ?

As others have said, if you cover up your past you cannot provide any references or proof that you have done any work, a similar situation to a refugee with no papers or an ex prisoner. I have direct experience with both of these situations.
You really only have two options;
1. Tell the truth & hope that a kind person accepts you for who you are.
2. Start from scratch with no work history, just like when you got your first job.
Complaining that it is not fair is not going to get you a job. If you are prepared to take ANY type of work & do a good job, you can then create a ‘new’ work history. It is completely possible to achieve good results IF you are prepared to open your mind to other possibilities & not expect the perfect outcome immediately.
I worked with many refugees who now have good lives & jobs (or businesses) that they enjoy. I also worked with a very senior bikie who went to jail for extremely serious offences. He took work in a very hot & uncomfortable factory because the employer was prepared to give him a go. The key point is that he was willing to do anything & work his way into a different position later.

Chelsea, my involvement with others has shown me that it is possible to gain employment, even with a difficult story. We all have different abilities & for those of us who need assistance, the key thing to understand is to accept the help that is being offered, whether it be the job agencies, Centrelink, The Gender Centre or those of us offering you help, ideas & support.

I wish you well for the future – very sincerely.

Moderator

Quote:

Please note the ongoing thread about Chelsea’s specific employment issues (rather than the general scope of the original topic’s request) can be found in Chelsea’s blog
http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/FXXXXXXXX/5102-102&postdays=0&postorder=asc

[Anonymous]

I have worked with several people that have decided to TG successfully. All have worked in government departments and have been accepted by most. I can’t comment on comments that may or may not have been made by their immediate work mates as I did not know them personally; however, that said, I can recall a TG person as early as 2004 that had no hastles in the workplace.

I would imagine it may depend on the type of people within the workplace that are in the position of employing the person.