Gender Spectrum and TG Scales

[Adrian]

Quote:

Like anything in our lives scales only represent who we are at any particular time.

I totally agree. I quoted a definition of transitioning in another thread
viewtopic.php?p=19829#19829
This refelceted the fluidity of preferred gender, as for many gender queer/inter-gender people their life can be one long process of redefining their preferred gender.

I have only proposed the value of a crude gender spectrum to understand oneself at a particular moment in time, and help others to give appropriate advice. Any idea that it will predict the end point of your journey would be unjustified.

[Anonymous]

Hmm

I would seem to have cause a mild kerfuffle!

I am the original poster that amanda quoted. You could call this my “right of reply” so to speak 😈

Firstly Lisa. I am aware of the research on genetics and intra uterine hormonal influences of Gender identity. I have looked at the research. I have a few scientific problems with it, notably I am concerned about selection bias and given that even the definition of TS and GID has been so variable even in scientific literature (do we need to quote blanchard, DSM et al any more) I fail to see without an “outcome” measure that is reliable how we can possibly test for a cause. The second Philosophical issue I have with the theory is it “smells” to me like just another reason to “blame” someone else, i.e. parents, for our problems and that really annoys the pants off me.

Amanda
Separating Gender, Physiological / Genetic Sex and Sexuality is not a new concept for me. Indeed if anyone is reading this and has NOT separated those things in their head in order to help understand themselves then do so. It will make it MUCH easier! Now I’m going to really annoy the pants off you by putting the opinion that whilst I believe for the most part the 3 concepts are separate I think it is likely also impossible to extricate them from each other completely. Gender will influence sexuality to some degree even for the standard hetero CD as whenever he is dressed in order to relate sexually to a female partner / SO he and his partner must incorporate some elements of a lesbian interaction at the very least into foreplay. Gender also impacts on physiology as most of those born GM but having a feminine gender identity will typically not pursue upper body muscle and many will alter food intake to achieve desired body shapes.

So now we have separated gender from physiology and sexuality and as you rightly say Amanda it should then be relatively easy to now apply the question of how does one “feel”. The problem is that to define whether you “feel” female you still need a reference point, an example. Maybe that is your mother, maybe a loved one, maybe it is as Amanda put it the general social acceptance of what is feminine. But what is that defined point? Is it the stay at home mum, cooking cakes and dinners in her house skirt? Is it the nurse, all caring and compassion? Or is it the career woman, juggling 10 different things at once, never wears a skirt and rarely wears a dress, her husband happily cooks meals and picks the kids up from school and runs around to the various sports on a weekend. Thus I feel my assertion that the “scale” even when self defined, has no real end points.

Thats enough food for thought for now though. I do find the discussion interesting.

[Anonymous]

Hmm Adina,
good reply, far more articulate than my previous version.

I just had a sense of deja vu. The bulk of your post reminded me very much of the very last significant reply I made to this same thread on that other forum. It’s a shame (for me) that I deleted the posts now. I’m fairly certain it’s the one that started by saying …Would the ‘proper girl’ please stand up & while we’re at it will the ‘real man’ step forward. Of course they are nonsensical requests…
Actually I’m sure it was that post.
It looks like something good came out of me reraising your original post 8 months after it was written (& not responded to) after all.

[Adrian]

I agree totally, that anything that is a self-assessment is never going to stand up to scrutiny as a scientific fact. I also think that I’m going to get physically hurt if, each time someone says to me

“I’m a woman trapped in a man’s body”

I reply

“Tell me – what exactly do you mean when you say a woman?”

Now, in defense of my 5-box gender spectrum I can dodge round this argument about endpoints perhaps.

Because my “scale” doesn’t have an end point – it has a range of end-points labelled “essentially female” and “essentially male”.

This deliberate vagueness accommodates to some degree the ambiguity as to what me mean by “female”. In the worst case there is going to be some fluidity between people assessing themselves as FFFF and FFFM.

When we look at the survey there is nothing really that manifests itself just in one box…and so at the end of the day it is the view it gives across the spectrum that is valuable I think… which doesn’t require the sort of scientific accuracy that others might be looking for.

[Elizabeth]

My peasant thoughts are still reeling with information and descriptions that are being posted on gender and sexuality. Everyone is entitled to their ideas and propositions and maybe, just maybe they are somewhere near being right on the button.
I think all the posts have merit because they are saying just what people are feeling about themselves. It is not necessarily a self diagnosis as to their condition but a personal appraisal of feelings, so in my mind they cannot be wrong. Lisa feels as a woman, Amanda feels what, somewhere in the middle, others feel where they are. Irrespective of our ideas, gender and sexuality are just one huge minefield which influence our decisions in life. Whether we marry, have children or do we stay single so as not to drag some other poor unsespecting soul into a transgenders lifestyle.
I most certainly do not blame anyone for my lifelong condition. The blueprint was right but something went wrong within the womb. It doesn’t change anything. I personally know of one poor loving mother who blamed herself for her transgender son, and nothing would convince her otherwise. I’m struggling to convince that woman it was not her fault in any way and to accept her beloved son, soon to be her daughter as they are.

Liz

[Angela_Morgan]

This topic has intrigued me for some time now and at the risk of reigniting a dormant contentious issue and reopening a can of worms, I am posting my limited understanding of gender from my perspective. I apologise in advance if this doesn’t fit with your own understanding but this is just my own take on what I believe to be a very complex issue.

Some of us with analytical brains have a need for a greater understanding of where we fit into the world. I therefore also apologise to those of you who aren’t analytical and don’t care about the hows and whys of gender variations and in some ways I envy you in just being able to accept yourselves for who you are.

The world we live is very diverse. We are all unique individuals with different needs and wants. No two individuals are alike from our genetic makeup to our experiences. We all have our own distinctive position on the “gender spectrum” and as such will see the world from our own specific view.

Firstly I would like to thank Amanda-Adrian for your simplification of this complex issue. The five categories she identifies are very helpful in placing oneself on the spectrum of Gender Identity. But after reading the posts in this thread and other studies I feel there is a further dimension that also needs to be explored.

I see the gender spectrum as being broken into the two components of:

Gender Identity i.e. Maleness/Femaleness
• Male (MMMM)
• Male – with some female aspects (FMMM)
• Neither male nor female (FFMM)
• Female – with some male aspects (FFFFM)
• Female (FFFF)

as proposed by Amanda-Adrian and

Gender Expression i.e. masculinity/femininity
• masculine (mmmm)
• masculine – with some feminine aspects (fmmm)
• Neither masculine nor feminine (ffmm)
• feminine – with some masculine aspects (fffm)
• feminine (ffff)

While most genetic males will tend towards the masculine end of the gender expression part of spectrum some will identify to varying degrees with the feminine end. But these people may or may not also tend towards the female gender identity. An individual could therefore exist anywhere within this two dimensional matrix of 25 different categories.

It has been said that the masculine/feminine dichotomy is just a social construct but I think that there is something fundamentally intrinsic in our biological makeup that sways us toward one end or the other of this divide. However from a young age we are conditioned to accept male = masculine and female = feminine. I don’t believe that this is the case. Female and feminine are two distinct and independent aspects of a person as are male and masculine.

For me masculine and feminine equate with the following qualities (Note – this is just my own opinion and you may have a different idea what constitutes masculine and feminine):

Masculine . . . . . . Feminine
Aggressive . . . . . . Passive
Rough . . . . . . . . . .Gentle
Dominant . . . . . . . Submissive
Indifferent . . . . . . Sensitive
Unconcern . . . . . . Caring
Intolerant . . . . . . .Tolerant
Hunter . . . . . . . . . Gatherer
Unemotional . . . . .Emotional
Protector . . . . . . . .Nurturer
Practical . . . . . . . . Aesthetic
Leader . . . . . . . . . Follower
Scientific . . . . . . . . Artistic
Risk Taker . . . . . . . Keeps Safe

While most males will fall predominantly into the masculine and most females will fall predominantly into the feminine group each may also have some of the qualities associated with the other group. Whether we are male or female we can have some of these characteristics from the masculine or feminine groups. Whichever group of qualities is the most dominant will then determine how masculine or feminine we feel at that moment. There will always be some fluidity as we explore, challenge, grow and change.

For myself at the moment I fall in the category of FMMM for Gender Identity and fffm for Gender Expression (when I am free of the social restrictions placed upon me) or fmmm for Gender Expression (when complying with the social restrictions around me).

While I have been reading threads in this forum for around a year this is only my fourth post and the first of any real substance. I am sorry if I have stepped on any toes and I realise that this may generate some strong feelings. However if you disagree or find this confusing please be gentle with me in your criticisms as my feminine side is very sensitive and emotional and harsh criticism will cause me to curl up in the corner and cry, never to post here again. Maybe you might think that might be a good idea!

[Anonymous]

As a long time reader of the forums, Angela_5 has prompted my first post.
As she said we all have our own position on the “gender spectrum”. I feel she has enlightened me to mine. Amanda-Adrian’s Gender Identity when I first saw it was great, I looked at it and knew straight away where I fitted in FFFFM.
But I knew there was more to it. When I read Angela’s post the penny droped as they say!
There is another dimension, Gender Expression and like her I swing from one end to the other depending on social restrictions, I wish it wasn’t like that but it is. One day soon it will be all F’s &f’s. Thank you Angela.

[Anonymous]

This is one of the many scales etc that have been designed to bring about some kind of definition but I have to say that it just scrapes the surface. I believe that there is a scale between black and white and between there are a million shades of grey, one person might say i am this shade another might say I’m that shade but at the end of the day I am who i am and proud of it.

Sometimes i think we just over analyse the whole thing!

Dr. Harry Benjamin’s Gender Disorientation Scale

Kinsey’s sexual orientation scale

0 Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual experience
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidently homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, but incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual, with no heterosexual experience
Type One: Transvestite (Pseudo)

Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing and — more –exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly. May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)

Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual. Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce libido.
Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)

Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed. Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful emotionally
Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)

Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman; sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible. Insufficient relief from dressing.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated.

[Adrian]

Kinsey’s sexual orientation scale

Just love this stuff in a community where we have people with male sex organs relating as if they were a woman. How on earth do you define heterosexual and homosexual in this context. That’s why I suggest strongly people leave sex at the door when they come in to discuss gender.

Dr. Harry Benjamin’s Gender Disorientation Scale

A fossil that is offensive to many in the community. Considering everyone to be either a true or fake Transsexual or Transvestite and then coupling it to sexual orientation is I hope completely discredited… and if it isn’t I volunteer to be a case study for anyone who is unconvinced it is rubbish.

But let me add the words of Wikipedia – as my opinion may not be enough to sway people from this path.

Quote:

Benjamin’s Scale references and uses Dr. Alfred Kinsey’s sexual orientation scale to distinguish between “true transsexualism” and “transvestism”. But the strict relationship between gender identity (Benjamin’s Scale) and sexual orientation (Kinsey’s Scale) was just a result of the researcher’s biases, not his scientific findings.

Conteporary views on gender identity and classification differ markedly from Harry Benjamin’s original opinions. First, sexual orientation is no longer regarded a criterion for diagnosis, or for distinction between transsexuality, transvestism and other forms of gender variant behavior and expression. Modern views also exclude fetishistic transvestism from th spectrum of transsexual identity/classification, this type of transvestism is not related to gender expression or identity but is a distinctly sexual phenomenon most commonly practised by people who are neither transsexual nor homosexual

[Anonymous]

Seems to me this is just another example of the same system that discriminates against LGBTI etc. people by limiting their access to services, institutions and, perhaps more importantly, to self acceptance. It constructs us as ‘other’, justifying dehumanisation, vilification and further discrimination. It’s this same system that put me in the closet in the first place. Unfortunately, I have to negotiate with the system in order to live the way I should have been living my whole life but that’s the way it is.

Luckily, in recent times, I have found helpful and sympathetic people along the way. Perhaps in Australia times and attitudes are changing?

[Anonymous]

Kinsey’s research results were first published in 1948 and should be construed within the norms of the United States at that time. It is to Kinsey’s credit that he preserved people’s privacy as it was revolutionary that people (men in particular) ‘fessed up to any experience or psycho-stumilli related to homosexuality (disregarding transgender). The results, at the time, were staggering to the general public and roundly lambasted by the Church and other conservative institutions. The sampling methods Kinsey used were quite rigorous and he was meticulous when recording information. The fact it is still quoted today is a testament to his research.

Never heard of the other guy!

[Anonymous]

Yes, as I stated it did/does scrape the surface and does not fit within the social norms of today’s modern thinkers but in it’s defense it created a debate in a time when these issues were kept well and truly hidden in the closet with all the other family skeletons.

Once again i say that we still over analyse and will still be doing so in in another 50 years.