How far is too far?

[Anonymous]

We spoke about this at the last picnic, Fran. Like the majority thre is no set path

Below is a angle that may be worth something to you. It’s not your fault

As I progress I have a similar situation. I have been accused of changing the rules after we were married but I disagree;

Human kind was created [my belief] man and woman, each living out their birth roles . But enviromental factors [ie harsher sun doing more damage] and artificial factors [ie foods that are chemical cocktails] are damaging the human body,s DNA, chromosomes [ passed down to the next generation as well] and the like, and deviations result like the rise in cancers and other diseases, and conditions like our transgenderism.
From that I conclude that transgenderism is a condition or disease, we have and we are being critized by society for acting out this condition by crossdressing into the role we believe, we should have been at birth.

On the other hand if a partner is permanently injured and in a wheelchair the other partner would normally look after him or her if the bond of love is strong enough.

When we get married the words “ for better or for worse .. “ or similar commitment is usually mentioned.

Is the condition of transgenderism any different to the person who had a accident and is in a wheel chair ?

If your partner does leave then she is the one changing her vows

Then again if we love that partner, would the transgendering partner go as far to take medications or hypnosis to neutralise this condition?

Or do transgenders like their condition so much that they do not want a gender solution and therefor risking a relationship to have this double life, which in itself could be part of the condition.

In a world where divorces are high and “ … for better or worse … “ or similar does not mean that much. There is a high risk that the condition of transgenderism can lead to loneliness.
Renegotiate to something mutual or I go, sounds a bit cold to me, but that is her choice and the reality of our times

Do you want to fight the condition for the sake of being with your partner?
Is the compromise going to satisfy the condition?

Everyone of us have different levels of this condition and for each of us it is unknown what lies ahead. There can be surprises ahead. In my opinion I would compromise and see what happens when you experience that level, then you re-decide. You may find the condition is not that strong and are able to back off or go all the way if the need is overburdening.

Compromise for now. So you have not burned your bridge/s. You can always re-compromise again later.

Georgette

[Anonymous]

Georgette, you are opening a can of worms when you assert that being Trans is a “disease”, I, for one, find that offensive. There are many theories ( mostly from those who are NOT trans!) about why we are we like we are but each one of us will have a story that is both common with others and unique to our own experiences. I think that is dangerous territory to generalize a cause to all of us and to project your own feelings about yourself to the rest of us.
Fran , as for the subject of a spouses feelings toward a trans partner, I think that their are various factors at play. One is that it a woman , on finding that her man wants to present as a woman, has to redefine her own sexuality and this can be hard to battle with after a lifetime of adjustment already . Then there is the whole ” frisson” thing , for many women, the visual cue of their man as a women is just not a turn on , no matter how attractive he may think he is. This , I am afraid is one of the sadder aspects of the ” condition” we are in. Can I suggest that you and your wife read Helen Boyd’s book ” My Husband Betty” In that book she courageously explores her conflicted feelings of her love and attraction to Betty and her feelings of loss and sadness about losing her man. It could be of great interest to a spouse who is struggling with her feelings for a trans partner.
My opinion is that we all ( adults of all genders) should work at being self reliant and emotionally independent . In this state we can really know ourselves and be of support to others who are struggling with their own emotional issues and allow us to stand as individuals (within a couple) and avoid the need to control the behaviour of our partners. It is a big ask I know but it is a healthy ” Vision statement” for a relationship and would avoid many of the issues that all couples face.

[Anonymous]

Christina, thank you for stating what I feared I would not be able to say without causing offense.

Fran, clearly you are in some distress. Hugs. Please, step back for a moment and ask yourself what do you want from your life. You can’t ‘negotiate’ with your partner until you know what you’re wanting. Yes, she does have a right to know and seek to understand. You obviously care and love her greatly

I tell people considering this issue – it’s not a race, and nothing is compulsory. Find yourself a reputable trans-positive counsellor. They’re not going to nudge you in any direction. Both you and your partner need to do this.

The opinions of amateurs who have not addressed their own issues will not help you.

Blessings
Christina

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your opinions and support. I know about the problem with my wife. We both have separate doctors seeing us and we are trying to discuss it. She want to me to work on the marriage instead of just fran. Both is okay.

I really would like to hear your opinions on how far is too far or how do you know when you have touched on a place where you would never feel right to go to again. I know a lot of girls get caught up in the transition and don’t experience the life they wish to lead after it is all done. I would hate to go through everything only to work out that I don’t know what to with myself or what I want after.

Fran

[Anonymous]

I care about Fran a hell of lot and don’t anyone suggest any different. Fran is a very lovely person who I see at the park outing most months.

I am merely placing real and possible situation forward. I did not say it is the situation but if it is, then partners should be hopefully more understanding rather that opt out at the first sign of significent trouble in a marrage.
This topic is not only for Fran alone but for others in a similar situation
Situations are different and the application of the following would be on merit

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2008/10/27/42169.aspx

Quote from above link
The scientists say biological factors are increasingly implicated in gender identity and they say their research supports a biological basis for how gender identity develops

What changes biological factors? The modern day list is substantual
One main one is free radicals damaging the human body in foods
Without going off track, Google it

Christina, My wife read all the books she could find and I have read a few books on transgenederism including My husband Betty
Reading these books is understanding what people go thru and there are so many questions in WHY WHY WHY? Greater understanding is also a answer to the WHY?

My wife in earlier times was friends with many transgenders, gay etc
She concluded then, that these people cannot help it.
Decade or so ago, when I was struggling a lot with gender identity in myself, I like the public was very critical and critical of myself and want to hide it my shame.
Now, being open transgender myself, I UNDERSTAND a lot more and I am in no way critical. I accept I can’t help it being what I am.

My wife does’t like what I have become as Fran’s wife would feel. But by UNDERSTANDING a situation goes a long way to acceptance and acceptance hopefully will keep friends, couples etc TOGETHER.

I am trying to get a medical version across which may or may not be Frans situation but I don’t know that for sure.

As my wife is understanding and like myself, is also aware of a possible medical issue long before the article above. Her understanding has brought us closer together and more open like never before.

That understanding is what I hope Fran’s wife will embrace and like my relationship, bring Fran and SO closer together rather than the other.

1, If you see a 60yr old with tits sitting across from you on a bus
2, If you knew this man and knew he had a age related hormonal imbalance that caused him to have tits.
Wouldn’t you not have less negatvity to him when you understand what he is going thru?

If it is not a medical cause. If it is something else, UNDERSTANDING the cause, in many books will help relationships. Thru professional help, Fran can find and accept the underlying problem, medical or other and hopefully they will stay together.

How far is to far? By understanding, talking and seeing professionals you will know how much your wife is going to accept. Fran, adjust as you go into your undiscovered country, unique to you.

I am sure we will all help wherever we can

Georgette

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[Anonymous]

Hi Fran
Just some thoughts on e-paper to your posting.

SRS/GRS should not be looked on by anybody as the end result and the sole wish by a TS person, so I agree with your words “Just like a lot of us think we might want SRS but you won’t know until it is done and then you can’t back out” is applicable.

Now, there is no way of knowing until you arrive at the situations what is just right or too far! You and I both know that you cannot count your Chickens until they hatch from the eggs/ Cross that bridge before you get to it etc, so in many respects you must play the waiting game and see what is going on along the way from day to day. Pity, your situation seems to have come down to a need to negitate or else result at this stage. Sounds like some level of resentment is going on, so what can you do? Well you can buckle under and not live your own life, or you can find a way to live with it, but many women cannot do this. I think my ex felt this way very early on and in time we split (perhaps partly because of my gender thinking?), so I have been down the path. It is not an easy situation to empathise with, but I can.

One thing you have to consider is what does it take to retain all that I have? Do I put myself on hold for us? Do I do what I can until the time comes when it is obvious that this marriage is not going to work even if I stay the same or I make a transition? That I feel this is one question you need to think about. And the answer is not easy to make as its has to be consciously arrived at, and often hurtful to both of you, individually and the marriage. If you exit, you need to be strong enough to go it alone, you know that and we all know that. But easier said than done, love is a strong binding force and being alone is just as strong too. Both are frightening in their own ways. And yes, any young children are going to be a issue that is hard to know what to do about it. My kids accept me as I am and that I’m grateful for, but it makes the situation no less easy.

Too far: okay, so what do you think is too far? You must already have some ideas in your mind of what is too far and what is not too far!
From a point of view, too far is being told that if you were to transition then that means instant divorce etc. That is a very bad situation and extremely Me Me Me, when infact there is room for negotation on all things. Not that I’m saying transition isn’t Me Me Me either, it is very much too, so this has to be a two way street. If you say that SRS/GRS is 100% on the cards then that means a great deal to All people, especially those closest to you. Sorry, but the penis is looked upon as a thing that matters very much, its part of the identity you have/ don’t want, and the identity she has in her mind. It is not my plan to get over-personal about this but such things have to be considered.

Sure, you are not the same Man that she married, but then again, fair is fair, she is not the same woman you married either. You have both deveolped in your own ways: loves, tastes, hobbies, jobs, personality etc and these are what you like about each other now and if you can conisder those along the way then that should be fairer. If she decided to become a Male, how would you feel? Would that shatter all your concepts and at some stage lead you to think very hard about stuff? I doubt that you would Not think about it just as much as I doubt anybody would Not think about it. If you can both acknowledge that you have changed and are fair about this, then too some extent it doesn’t matter who you or she becomes because you are together for the long haul, blood guts and glory. It won’t happen overnight (like Pantene) but if you work at it over a period of time just like marriage is, then you will arrive in time to a realisation that all is okay and perhaps wonder what all the fuss is about?!

So, where do we end up? If you both are to negotiate things, then you both need to be open minded about it and have some ideas of what is too far to begin with and engage in an on-going series of conversations, not just one.

Cheers

AbbeyJane

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Hi Fran

SRS/GRS should not be looked on by anybody as the end result and the sole wish by a TS person, so I agree with your words “Just like a lot of us think we might want SRS but you won’t know until it is done and then you can’t back out” is applicable.

Umm… as someone who is TS/TG (or any other label you want to give), I find it strange when people suggest they might want to back out after SRS…. I would love to have SRS (no backing out) if it would give me what I want. It won’t give me what I want so currently it is unlikely I’ll go for SRS. The only thing that I will complain about is that I cannot have my documents changed without SRS unless I get medical certs to say I cannot complete SRS safely.

What I have written on my myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/michelle_i_sullivan) really sums up my feelings on SRS, and I repeat them here:

Quote:

Thoughts on “The Operation”:

Am I going to have “the operation”? That is something I will continue to review as I move forward in this phase of my life. My current thoughts are that I would like the operation, but I see little point in it. I have learned how to “tuck” and stay “tucked” so generally why do I need to have my body mutilated by some doctors who claim that they will make me the woman I always wanted to be? Mutilation aside, the main reason for me to get the operation is so that I can be officially recognised as the gender I really am. This is where even I say the system sucks. If the government want to ensure that I can’t ever have children as a male I have no issue with that (I can’t have children now anyhow), but why should I have to be mutilated?

The male hormone testosterone is mainly produced in the testes so requiring the removal of the testes before becoming eligible to be classed as ‘female’ is fine by me (I’d do it tomorrow). Removal of other parts of your body, creation of something that looks like the correct sex organ out of skin grafts and inversion of other body parts amounts to nothing more than mutilation and I don’t agree with it. That said if medical technology was such that I could be transplanted with a real female sex organs, I’d be fighting to be at the front of the queue.

So I think the OP should really think about whether they are TS/TG or not, because I don’t believe you can be half TS/TG and half not, you either are or are not. If the OP or anyone else finds themselves in doubt about whether they are TS/TG they should never think of going forward with SRS (even if they get past the psych checks).

How far is to far? Well if you “go full time”, what else is there before cosmetic and SRS operations? I’ve been “full time” since Sept 2008, and I have no thoughts of ever hiding behind the persona I grew up as. That said, the OP should discuss something like “going full time” with their partner as it is (or will be regarded as) changing the rules.

As to the idea transgenderism is a disease.. that’s quite offensive more so than saying it’s a disability, we are who we are. I was born transgendered, I didn’t catch it, there isn’t a cure, this is who I am and who I have always been.

Take care,

Shells