-
Is your chat room welcome welcoming?
I hope this doesn’t come across as being too precious…
TgR is a home for the gender diverse…we embrace diversity and hopefully don’t insist that everyone has a dream to become Ms Perfect ( or Mr Perfect for that matter).
We do have members who are not treading the well worn path of the M2F journey, and I like to think that TgR is welcoming to them, and our response attracts even greater diversity.So the alarms bells ring in my head when I hear something said that implies that TgR is just a place for boys who wannabe girls.
And in that context I think the greetings some members use in the chat room perhaps lacks sensitivity.
Quote:Evening girlsQuote:Hallo ladiesAlthough you personally may consider everyone as stereotypical female it might be appreciated if you said:
Quote:Evening everyoneor chose some other form of welcome that doesn’t rely on gender.
If I was in a large room full of people and someone shouted out “Men to the right, women to the left”, I would just stand still.
I don’t see that I need to “fit in” by pretending to be one or the other. -
13 Replies
-
To be honest Amanda when I look at the names of those in chat it is almost invariably a list of female names hence I will always greet ladies. If I see a male name I will separately identify that person; but to be honest I cannot remember it happening.
I think to refer to “all” or non gender specific titles is a bit like wishing happy holidays at Christmas and perhaps a bit too far with being PC.
Then again I am a grumpy old lady.
June
-
June,
I think that is probably the very thing that makes me feel uneasy.
If society had given us a wide range of names to choose from free of any binary gender constraints and associations then I would agree that name might be a good indicator of true gender identity.
But that isn’t the case. A name is just… a name.
Well I know personalty that my adopted name has nothing to do with the way I feel – it was a result of a ‘requirement’ to have a femme name when joining Seahorse 20+ years ago.Let me illustrate my point with a sneak preview of the results of the TgR survey – that is a snapshot of the people you might meet in the chat room.
This shows the distribution of membership from those who see their gender identity as being completely male (MMMM) to those who consider themselves totally female (FFFF).
I don’t want to discuss the survey here, but you will see that a female form of address is probably comfortable or appropriate for just 65%.
I don’t think we are discussing political correctness here – or i hope not. To me this is an issue of allowing gender diversity to be seen and recognized.
Sometimes it seems that it is our own behavior that creates the perceptions in society that we then complain about!
-
Hi,
Here is no different than any where else , in large meetings i.v taken & iv been invited to give a talk iv just said hi every one one group was all like my self woman . the next was both male & female same again
I said hi every one ,
unless it one of those , good evening Ladie’s & gentalmen kind of well you know what i mean not my thing ,
even here its hi or evening all or evening every one. because i dont allways know some comeing in wether you are a male or female tho most i do know those iv known over 5 years, & more so those iv meet.
as we say if your wearing a skirt then ill use female names if in mens wear then male if im not sure,tho how far do we take that, for the legal side im a woman & im known as noeleena by most people here & were i live.
so ill leave you with Hi every one.
…noeleena…
-
Amanda has hit something on the head here. The real issue is why we address the group collectively according to masculinity or femininity. By using a gender specific term in our greeting, we really do throw a dividing line down the room. I have never really given much thought to how I greeted the chatroom in regards to the context of gender spectrum present. However this post has somewhat caused me to consider why I greet the way I do.
If one stops and thinks for a moment how a girl would address a group of friends as she joins them, one would realise that she would rarely use the terms ‘ladies’ and ‘girls’ in addressing the group. When you think of even how a guy would address a group of guys, you’ll realise that the same rule applies. Infact he would no doubt be facing ostracism if he uses the line “Good evening Gentlemen” if they are all not well dressed and wearing top n’ tails. Using a gender collective term to adress a group is not how things play out in a typical meeting of gender-based groups
Often in the past my greeting has relied more on my mood and manners. If my mood is above good, then I tend to use “Good evening ladies”. If I’m feeling fun or cosy with the crowd present then I might have said “Hiya/Hello girls!” This is because I felt I was joining a camaraderie of friends whom the majority experience the same internal femme conflict. Irrespective of our differing outward state in life, many girls are here to talk somewhere where they can be themselves. If the people in the chatroom are all presenting as female to each other I would see no real reason not to use a feminine collective term in my greeting. Of course if there was a person presenting as a man, then my greeting would have been the lady-folk first with my manners, then to mention the menfolk by name second. Also if the crowd has both people presenting as masculine and feminine in reasonably significant numbers then I would have felt the use of a gender neutral term to be more appropriate.
However, the situation which most often has someone greeting a collective group according to their gender is when the person who greets the groups does not consider themselves not part of that group. ie A girl saying “Hi boys!” and a guy saying “Hello ladies!”
Honestly, if it weren’t for Amanda pointing this issue out I would have been totally unaware of it.
-
If a person has a female name & dresses as female, am I correct to address that person using the female pronoun?
If I cannot see how the person is dressed but has an avatar of themselves in female mode & still has a female name, am I still not correct in addressing them with the female pronoun.
If I were to use a gender neutral pronoun, would that bring me into conflict with that person? As I am now denying their persona.
I recently had a discussion on another CR that was specifically for MTF transgenders & the person entering the room said “Hi guys” – was that appropriate?
This is another example of people railing against labels. But without some grammatical rules how are we to cope? Chairperson has always sounded cumbersome to me. What is wrong with chairwoman/man depending on the gender of the person involved.
OK, I can already hear the argument for the gender neutal. If that is how they feel then (& I have no argument with that) I suggest – just to help us simple folk out – that they consider a gender neutral name – such as Peta, Jaime, Terri etc. Some people have been dressing in gender neutal clothes for an awfully long time. Perhaps the modern day gender neutral person should consider the same.
I have been to meetings of people who identify as males but dress as females. While they are dressed they use the female pronoun.
Now to the TGR CR – if the room consists of members who use a female name, then am I insulting them if I use a gender neutral greeting instead of a female greeting? If the room consists of a mixed group – by that I do not mean majority but anyone who is obviously male or gender neutral – as evidenced by their name or avatar then a gender neutral greeting would be appropriate.
This has overtones back to one of my original posts – how welcoming are we?
It is an area full of reefs & shoals that would strand a skipper better than Francesco Schettino the captain of Costa Concordia. How am I to cope?
Lisa
-
The best greeting is the best goodbye: a warm hug.
Cant get more gender non-specific then that. If you want to use a pronoun or two to make it personal, why not?
-
Lisa,
How convenient to ask simple questions!
My answers?Quote:If a person has a female name & dresses as female, am I correct to address that person using the female pronoun?Female pronoun – absolutely as in “she is in the room tonight”. But ladies and girls are nouns and as Evey has so correctly observed no one outside our chat room is going to say “hallo girls”.
Quote:If I cannot see how the person is dressed but has an avatar of themselves in female mode & still has a female name, am I still not correct in addressing them with the female pronoun.Female pronoun – absolutely. But once again referring to a group of such avitars as women or ladies is both unusual and also inappropriate for those who see themselves as having a feminine part but don’t consider themselves to be women. If the avitar is of some renovation work then all bets are off anyway!
Quote:If I were to use a gender neutral pronoun, would that bring me into conflict with that person?I remember a firestorm in Seahorse NSW years ago because some one who should know better referred to members as it (a gender neutral pronoun). Don’t go there. English has a very restricted list of pronouns and they are based on masculine, feminine and neuter. Neuter is an insult to a person. The good news is that English has a wide range of nouns and the vast majority are not masculine or feminine – so there is no reason to stick with gender stereotypical words like girls and ladies.
Quote:I recently had a discussion on another CR that was specifically for MTF transgenders & the person entering the room said “Hi guys” – was that appropriate?I believe that anyone under 30 would address a room of people as “Hi guys”. I tried it in the chat room and people took offense. Maybe they were a) out of touch or b) trying to tell me to act my age?
Quote:What is wrong with chairwoman/man depending on the gender of the person involved?Lisa, if you see gender as being male or female then I guess you would see nothing wrong with pigeon-holing people into chairman or chairwoman. I’m fighting for the 3rd sex/forgotten gender/whatever and saying that both terms are incorrect if we embrace gender diversity.
Quote:just to help us simple folk out – that they consider a gender neutral name – such as Peta, Jaime, Terri etc. Some people have been dressing in gender neutal clothes for an awfully long time. Perhaps the modern day gender neutral person should consider the same.Ok – so we now consider perhaps gender to be the two good accepted ones – male and female – then everyone else in between is “gender neutral”. But where do you draw the line? How feminine can a gender neutral person be before they have to jump the fence and become female. In that case who is going to categorise the balance of male and female in each name? How feminine does someone have to be before they are allowed to wear a skirt?
Gender diversity is about not putting up these artificial barriers. It is about accepting that gender is an analogue between male and female.
Quote:Now to the TGR CR – if the room consists of members who use a female name, then am I insulting them if I use a gender neutral greeting instead of a female greeting?No. As Evey has pointed out you will be behaving like most other members of society. In other contexts people see no need to make a gender specific greeting. And people don’t take offense.
Quote:How am I to cope?Only a suggestion.. but how about…
a) accept that gender is a continuum
b) avoid classifying the gender of someone by simple rules (like wearing a skirt or having a certain name)
c) avoid circumstances which would imply that you had made such a classification – generally by using the genderless English that is common in everyday use. -
I have always said Hello or Hi all as a collective and when other girls say Hi, then I say hi, hey or hello personally as their name suggests. I agree that there is a duty of observance as to the those in the chat room and how they like to be referred to, but if there’s a group of chatters who all are in the chat room with their preferred names, then a general greeting should be targetted at their preferred names ie their preferred gender in the chat room.
Situationally based perhps?
Helen
-
often very young babys all look the same to me just be plesent and say hi
-
Quote:c) … generally by using the genderless English that is common in everyday use.
“Genderless English?” This is beyond my grammatical knowledge!
Examples please?
Clare.
-
Quote:Quote:c) … generally by using the genderless English that is common in everyday use.
“Genderless English?” This is beyond my grammatical knowledge!
Examples please?
Clare.
For reference try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_EnglishIn modern English – the only gender that remains is, in Wikkipedia’s words – natural gender.
If I’m talking about the girl I met yesterday I will say “she was attractive”
If I’m talking about the chairman I will say “he took to his feet”
But if I’m talking about my friends I will say “they are supportive” regardless of whether they are male or female or anything in between.Most of English is now genderless – encouraged on its way by feminism that reduced the acceptability of using some remaining masculine nouns to describe females. I believe that “Hallo Gentlemen” has been replaced by “Hi Guys” in the younger generations and “Hi everyone” by those over 30. Drawing attention to gender through one’s language has become politically incorrect.
Natural gender works fine of course if you think that gender is binary and so everyone can neatly be allocated to male or female. My point in raising this thread was to raise awareness that such simplistic assumptions don’t hold in TgR. For instance, just because someone is very feminine, doesn’t mean they see themselves as 100% woman, and similarly they may not see themselves either as 100% man (see the chart I posted earlier).
And so I suggested that the best way is perhaps to avoid words in your language that introduce the need for gender. Then you don’t have to assign people into being male or female. This starts with avoiding nouns like “Chairman” that force you into implying a gender, and finishes with steering clear of the personal pronouns like she and he that are the last vestiges of gender (unless of course you know a particular gender is appropriate).
It appears this concept is harder for people to grasp if they are on the “ends” of the gender spectrum – feeling largely man or largely woman.
I know those who feel they are a woman are very upset if someone uses a male gender to describe them.
I’m highlighting in this thread that gender in English can hurt everyone in our community and so is best avoided.I hope that ramble answered your question (?)
Amanda
P.S. It does make we wonder how we would manage if we all wanted to speak French or Spanish…. gee do they have some obstacles in their way!
-
This thread has had a good run – its probably time to wrap up.
In conclusion I’d like to stress there are no rules in the chat room that mean you have to use one particular way of addressing people.
It is up to each person to assess the situation and do what they see is appropriate.
I hope this thread has alerted everyone to the fact that the chat room is not dedicated to “girls” or “ladies”, rather it is open to all members no matter where they sit on the gender spectrum.
Whilst I would hope that members are sensitive enough to respect this, I know old habits die hard, and I expect some will continue to behave as if they own the space. As I said there are no rules.
But I do believe that if the room was more welcoming to diversity perhaps more members (who demonstrably are diverse) may feel inclined to use it.
On a personal note, I hope the thread has alerted everyone that the admin is an example of someone who does not fit particularly comfortably into the “ladies/girls” space.
I’m just “me”.
So if you see me in the room it is your choice if you want to acknowledge my presence appropriately or not.
Again no rules… though there are possibly consequences. 😉 -
How I am addressed is of no consequence to me. I am a male presenting as female at times, my English history was all done as a male and therefore I will always tend to maleness in my form of speaking, so I don’t expect anyone else to change their grammatical mindset to a gender they weren’t born and raised in
