SRS doesn’t make one a woman!

[Anonymous]

Gender is about identity. SRS is just a physical correction of an apparent genetic anomaly.

NO. SRS does not make one a woman. It does however, make the mind and body appear to conform with each other.

But, I don’t agree that SRS makes you female. It is female in appearance only. You still do not have ovaries or a womb. You cannot bear children. Without HRT you would be a eunuch. You will still only be able to perform as a female with assistance from lubrication and dilation. But, if you are fortunate, you may be sen-sate and be able to experience something close to what a natal female might. Bit of a game of Russian Roulette that one.

The purpose of SRS (or GRS) is to more closely align the body to the mind and socially accepted ideals of what is male or female. It will not “fix” any problems that you may be experiencing with establishing your brain gender and may even compound any unresolved issues. Neither will it make your acceptance by society in your chosen gender any greater than you would get without it.

It is the “LAST” of the treatments one should be seeking to correct what should “have been” from birth. If you are not a woman in your mind and living the life accepted to be female and accepted as a female, then you may be making a huge mistake. That is why it is so difficult to get this treatment and why it should continue to be difficult.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

NO. SRS does not make one a woman. It does however, make the mind and body appear to conform with each other.

But, I don’t agree that SRS makes you female. It is female in appearance only. You still do not have ovaries or a womb. You cannot bear children. Without HRT you would be a eunuch. You will still only be able to perform as a female with assistance from lubrication and dilation. But, if you are fortunate, you may be sen-sate and be able to experience something close to what a natal female might. Bit of a game of Russian Roulette that one.

Does this mean then the natal females that for some reason, cannot bear children, do not have ovaries or a womb are not female, but only appear so.

Also some natal women need assistance from lubrication and some even need dilating

I have heard that a lot of us, including myself, that have had Surgery have natural lubrication and are sen-sate, especially with the surgeries that are performed today

Just hope people will behave civilly with this post
Sharon

[Anonymous]

Quote:

But, I don’t agree that SRS makes you female. It is female in appearance only. You still do not have ovaries or a womb. You cannot bear children. Without HRT you would be a eunuch.

Portia, much of what you said is quite correct but this bit is off. Are natal women with full hysterectomies not female? My natal female partner fits your criteria for not being female. Legally we are female, practically we are female, we regard ourselves as female and I think that arguements that post op transwomen are not female will offend most of them.
We fight that battle all the time, “you’re not really female”, “You’re not a real woman”, “you’re really a guy”, just different intensities of the same fundamental arguement that we are somehow not authentic and less than “the real thing”. Statements to the contrary from our own community are simply not helpful. As you said, the birth defect is corrected, we are women, and although we have an unfortunate history we ARE female.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Quote:

But, I don’t agree that SRS makes you female. It is female in appearance only. You still do not have ovaries or a womb. You cannot bear children. Without HRT you would be a eunuch.

Portia, much of what you said is quite correct but this bit is off. Are natal women with full hysterectomies not female? My natal female partner fits your criteria for not being female. Legally we are female, practically we are female, we regard ourselves as female and I think that arguements that post op transwomen are not female will offend most of them.
We fight that battle all the time, “you’re not really female”, “You’re not a real woman”, “you’re really a guy”, just different intensities of the same fundamental arguement that we are somehow not authentic and less than “the real thing”. Statements to the contrary from our own community are simply not helpful. As you said, the birth defect is corrected, we are women, and although we have an unfortunate history we ARE female.

Totally Agree Gwendoline, It really disheartens me that people in our own community can think this way, it is bad enough that we have this problem in the general community.

And I was a little bit offended by the statement.

Sharon

[Anonymous]

Call me an idiot but does natal = natural? Am I merely showing my ignorance or does natal mean something different? Also, I think you are all being too hard on Portia – I get her point and don’t think she was trying to upset anyone.

Julie

[Anonymous]

Yes, I have copped a bit of flak over these comments. The point I was trying to make was that if you are not already female in mind, then it doesn’t really matter what you do with the body. SRS may make you LOOK like a female, but it will not make you a woman. Just because you now have genitalia that from the outside cannot be discerned as being anything but the real thing, it will not change how you fit into society.

I would like to take issue with anyone who would disagree that their journey has been identical to a typical person who has grown up in their birth gender. A baby becomes a girl OR boy, grows into a man OR woman. That is the societal norm. If you grow from a baby to become a boy, but you believe you are a girl or just somehow different, your experiences WILL be different to someone who is raised as a girl. How you see yourself is irrelevant to how others see you, unless you are so convincing as a person of your non-birth gender that no-one will question it. And it is the same for the next phase from girl to woman OR boy to man. There are exceptions but they are few.

And, yes, there are natal females who need dilation and lubrication or cannot bear children. this does not make them any less female. However, they have never had a penis either. And then we have the inter-sexed group who are stuck out there in between the borders and need to assess where their true gender lies. But should they even need to make a choice?

And, as much as I may have offended others, and it is completely without malice. I do not believe that having SRS is the answer to where your own true gender lies. As with any statements, portions can be isolated for attack, but the true sentiment lies within the whole, not within any individual part. I believe that the media is one area where they pick and chose what to publish or not depending on the effect they are chasing. If you read my comment as a whole and not just the individual parts you wish to take offense to, you will see the intention behind my comments.

I believe, and I have seen it many times, that there are those on this journey who will try to convince everyone who has felt compelled to wear the clothing of the opposite to their birth gender that they are in the wrong body and NEED SRS to fix “their” problems. Unfortunately, there are those who undertake the SRS route and screw up their lives. Their problem wasn’t fixed and now it is compounded because then they have been castrated and mutilated.

If you are female in mind and soul, then SRS will physically align your body to who you believe you are. SRS will not make a man a woman or vice versa. You cannot resolve years of nurturing and learning by a simple – or even complicated – operation. If – at say 49 – you decide that all those years of indecision or not knowing what was wrong was really because you were born the wrong gender, you cannot erase those 49 years of living and suddenly have the same experiences a 49 year old natal female would have. Fight and argue all you like, if we can make these changes and they are accepted by others, then we are doing well. How often do we hear of mothers, fathers, wives, husbands, children, friends or workmates who cannot deal with what we are doing in spite of everything we do to try to convince them we are “male” or “female” and this was how we always felt? The best we can do is become as close to the person we really need to be and learn to accept the limitations that nature has imposed on us and to be intelligent enough to be aware if the path we are choosing is actually the right one for us.

Yes, I am living as a female. I would love to be accepted and treated as a woman. But, I am also realistic that for the vast majority of MY life I was viewed as a male by those around me in spite of how I may have felt inside. I had all the responsibilities and benefits that went with that. It is only now that I am closer to those in the gender that I believe I should have been that the glaring differences that society forces on us and the experiences we go through has become so blatantly obvious to me. SRS will not change that. It will only alter the appearance and a good portion of the functionality to further conceal my past and make me closer to how my brain sees me. It will not make me “female”, nor will it make me a “woman”. That process has already taken place in my mind. SRS will not change how others see me unless that is how they already see me.

AND THAT is my point. So, maybe I didn’t word it quite correctly in every sentence or paragraph but I think I included it almost everywhere above. If you are post op transwoman or transman, it is not about the operation. That is the final physical alteration of the body to become aligned with the mind. The operation in itself will not make you male or female, man or woman. It is your mindset and presence and “who” you are that determines that. BUT, it cannot change your past or your experiences. No offense was ever intended and neither do I seek to bring down the whole Transgender Movement by my opinions. If any offense was taken, I apologise profusely. Thanks Ella-Kristine for sharing that brief but powerful comment. I guess I put your few words into way too many and upset a few people on the way.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your support Julie. I think I was way into my reply when you posted. I do suffer seriously from foot-in-mouth disease so I am used to being taken to task. Too many words I think.

And, yes, natal means “at birth” as in neo-natal or post-natal.

[Anonymous]

I am aware that many people take personally any comment that is intended as a general statement on the transgender issue . It is their right to do so but does not further the debate IMO.
Having said that , I agree in principle with Portia , I think that SRS without the right mindset is a recipe for pain. I think that to expect that surgery will make one acceptable in Society is wrong thinking. It is how we behave toward others and not how we look that is most important in how they perceive us.
I also think that to use the terms female and woman in conjunction , confuses the debate. They are not the same thing IMO, female is more to do with how you are defined ( by others !) at birth and woman is a social construct . In this case one can be a woman in society by fitting in with the definition while not being female. This state , of course, will be rejected by those who need ” all or nothing” but that is their opinion. If however , ones thinking brings pain and isolation then I believe that one needs to reexamine the thinking.
The elephant in the room however is that we feel the need to conform to the values and limitations of other people, asking them ” am I acceptable??” (I include myself here unfortunately!) but I can’t help thinking that this is a very immature attitude and that we should be concentrating on the strength of our own minds to be how we want and be strong enough to deal with the outcomes that this can bring. All good self help books will say be yourself but that is easier said than done . To live to our own values and yet be available to others is the ultimate in maturity IMO.

[Anonymous]

Hi All
Actually Portia I tend to agree with the statement ! Agree to the point that
there are some who have srs when their mind is not really female .To my feeble brain all the SRS, FFS and HRT available will not make up a persons “mind” to enjoy being female if the mind is not fully convinced its female
I have met SOME girls who have had SRS and think this qualifies them to be female but their behaviour belies this notion. I think the extreme example is the person who I met at a gay venue who had a totally masculine body,dressed as a male , had a male voice and personna but said that having had SRS they were female .It seemed to me, at the time, they just wanted to experience sex in a female role ..
Of course many who have SRS go onto being completely female and see SRS as the final step in a long long journey
Hugs
Suzz

[Anonymous]

Hi.

Ill came at this a bit differently . & may be this will give an idear of who i am im not a transsexual or a dresser ror transvste ,

what i am is a intersex brain wired androgynous person /. woman with a male back ground & from birth.

with out going in to a lot of detail . im accepted as a woman were ever i go if it s here in N Z or Os e. & more acceptance in Thailand.,

now most of my friends on T R are dressers. & i see them both in male & or female mode to me i see a person not a lable as we some times have to use . im talking about those iv met & some of those others are female./ women

at age 10 i was different & as i grow i was thinking both at the same time male & female . you see it did not have any thing to do with takeing H R T or having S R S.. i was / am That way from birth & as it is H R T had not made any difference to me its only to keep my body at a maintaince level so i dont have health probs ,
6 years so far on H R T.& yes iv had S R S & B A. july 07.

okay what else about this nut case kid ,

really im just accepted as a woman ,
Now heres my down side. i dont pass or ever will im 63 & no way am i haveing F F S. & why should i when im accepted for who i am .
I dont hide away im out there all the time just liveing ,

In passing many trans have major problems in thinking they wont to be female / women hey okay, i said wont . not are this is where the difference comes in .. to wont some thing is far different than being some thing , & if trans cant accept them selfs first . then dont expect others too.

i was told by one of my women friends i am a woman , then be one.

my manner denots, WOMAN not a may be not even a ?? as to if i am or not . its i am ……if you cant make sence of what iv said . then please treat me as a nut caes …because i really am..iv had years of getting it right,
If we cant laugh at our selfs then it s time to pack it in . if you get what i mean .

okay back to the assylum.

…noeleena…

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia,
I agreed with everything you said except for that one sentance and you posting clarifies your position so in a sense there were too few words, not too many. Once again I agree with the fundamantal arguement you are making. Just to spell it out SRS does not solve a persons problems, nor does it make a person female, or a woman UNLESS they already were mentally in which case it certainly does make a significant difference, one of which is being recognised as legally female. I always thought that SRS was the “full stop” , the last thing in a persons transition to female (or womanhood). I was so wrong. The changes psychologically were profound and in a sense transition really started from my date of SRS. Prior to having it I would have laughed at that proposition, but I’m not laughing when I say it now. I can’t even begin to describe the differences SRS has made in my life, the words are simply not there. So to put tongue firmly in cheek “Don’t underestimate the power of the pussy!”
I have a couple of observations to make and I have put them below. I am not arguing as as I said I agree with almost everything you say.

Quote:

Yes, I have copped a bit of flak over these comments. The point I was trying to make was that if you are not already female in mind, then it doesn’t really matter what you do with the body. SRS may make you LOOK like a female, but it will not make you a woman.

Agree very much with this. If you are a woman however it goes a long way to making you female.

Quote:

I would like to take issue with anyone who would disagree that their journey has been identical to a typical person who has grown up in their birth gender.

And I agree with this too, you can’t change the past. You can however live in the present, and while acknowledging the past not let that be you you are today, which is in my case myself. (A very femme mostly lesbian woman, and female!) I think the myself is the important bit since you can’t be anyone else.

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How you see yourself is irrelevant to how others see you, unless you are so convincing as a person of your non-birth gender that no-one will question it.

This is also quite correct but in the end the opposite also applies. If you know who you are then others perception of you also becomes irrelevant. In other words other peoples perceptions of you do not affect who you truly are.

Quote:

Yes, I am living as a female.

I used to say that all the time, then after about 18 months post op I realised I was female. Very strangely it came as quite a surprise. And I don’t expect anyone to fully understand that, because I don’t either.

Gwen

[Anonymous]

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Yes, I am living as a female.

I used to say that all the time, then after about 18 months post op I realised I was female. Very strangely it came as quite a surprise. And I don’t expect anyone to fully understand that, because I don’t either.

Gwen

When I read this bit back it made me realise what I had said. And it shows exactly where I am at this point in time. I am still surprised when people do not question the fact that I am presenting to them as a woman. In my mind (and this is probably where the confusion comes in) I believe I am female (or a woman) but my body does not reflect that (work in progress). My emotions and way of thinking are definitely feminine. I still feel that every minute that I am accepted as a woman it is because someone else has accepted me in that role. My sentiments on this posting originate in the very fact that “others” give me permission to be the way I feel I should always have been. I do not feel that I have the right to claim to be female ), but I crave that others, even authority figures (medical/legal) accept me as such. Even with surgery, I would hope to be given the rights accorded to a natal female, but we know this is an ongoing battle. This is in contrast to a natal woman who has never experienced “other people” casting doubts over the very essence of who they perceive themselves to be. Health and financial barriers may mean I never get to have SRS. I know it may seem that I may be envious of those who have had SRS and in some respects, I suppose I am. But, and I am in no way casting any aspersions on ANYONE who has had or intends to have SRS, it is those who hold up the fact that they have undergone these treatments yet do not behave in a feminine or female manner that I do take issue with.

By all means behave in any manner to which you want to behave. I accept all people for who they are. But if you want me to accept you as a woman or female, most people including myself, will expect that you will behave within most of the confines of the accepted societal norms and markers. I, or anybody else, should not be expected to accept you as a woman just because you have a certificate which states you have had SRS. If you behave as a woman is expected to behave (don’t give me any of those old fashioned Victorian notions of femininity thank you) I, and most people, will accept you as a woman regardless of whether or not you can function as one.

And then there are those who are happy to be androgynous. I was for a long time. I applaud anyone who is happy and secure in who they are. I think that is a place (mindset) many of us aspire to. I am way happier now than I have ever been in all the various facets of this journey. And every-one’s journey is different. Thank goodness we are. Life would be so boring otherwise.

And thank you to those who have shown understanding in what I was trying to convey. I also thank those who have taken issue with my comments. Controversy is healthy and you can never end up with a balanced view unless you have taken in all viewpoints. And, believe it or not, we are on the same side. We can do ourselves a favour or we can do ourselves a disservice. If we don’t raise the concerns that others will throw in our faces, how will you be prepared for the real fight when it happens?

[Anonymous]

On thinking about it, Yes Surgery alone does not make one male or female, Man or woman, you also have to have the mindset.

It also helps to be seen as the gender you represent, which I am by 99.9% of people I meet then again that can be said for a lot of the population, even my mum has been mistaken for a man at times. (when this happens she really lets fly)

I remember one of my co-workers and a good friend said to me one day, a few months before my surgery, after I had been crying in the toilet about a certain thing between my legs, “It doesn’t matter what you have between your legs, you are a woman to me”

All the best
Sharon

[Anonymous]

I think like a lot of problems in life there is sometimes a culmination of factors that create an answer and not just one idea or one point alone.

Define woman? Looking at the dictionary.reference meaning I had to laugh.

I guess this one made the most sense..

5. the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women; womanliness.

but that is only part of it right…. they kinda encompass parts of gender, the feeling; self identity between feminine/masculine. the characteristics; the gender roles and how we present to the world.

Then there is the physiological side… the difference between having dominate estrogen or testosterone levels in our circulation. I personally feel this is a large part of it because it effects so much.. our bodies shape, scent, softness of skin, moods and the way we process certain feelings and thoughts a lot of which are considered either feminine or masculine.

secondary sex characteristics such as certain bone structures, breast/nipple formation and genitals are debatable. Yet I still feel have a huge part in it… and so does the legal system they determine sex according to genitals alone. Another example of how unfortunately we must bow down to certain social standards/expectations in this day and age.

Reproduction has already been dismissed with good cause.

I see SRS as ….well what does SRS set out to achieve? Sex Reassignment Surgery. It sets out to change genitals from one sex to the other. Which alone is not enough to declare someone female or male or whatever the case may be. Though one does have to be on HRT to do so and by doing so the legal system considers it enough to change sex from male to female or vice versa.

I guess in their understanding from going through the correct channels ones gender has been identified as the same as the target sex and the surgery is considered a necessity to correct the problem of gender dysphoria which in most cases is the original diagnosis.

So in a series of steps and procedures one can then be considered female. But as the OP said SRS alone is not enough to do that.
So at what point can one say they are now female? Is there a one-size-fits-all answer for that? I don’t think so because we are all different right.. and all have different ideas about what is considered enough. Even the legal system!
Some might say once they accept their true selves, their true gender and start their transition then that is when they can… but some might say no you have to change your hormones to do so etc etc.

Personally I’ve always felt alien to the concept of being male, the expectations, the feelings testosterone provoke, being badgered by your genitals/hormones constantly, being seen as male while feeling that doesn’t fit to who I am. So I could in a sense at least say I am a girl/woman on the inside but several other factors needed to be addressed before it could really be official and for others to also see and understand.
So for me it’s based mostly on gender identity and the hormones that are most dominant in ones system. And SRS is but another hurdle to become as close as we can to the body we should have been born into. I don’t see it as the last hurdle though.. just another one of the several.. and for me at least the most scary hurdle

[Anonymous]

One simple truth. I was born female.

I had a vaginaplasty to correct a genital abnormality.

Anything else is other people forcing their oppressive definitions onto me