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What is ‘living as a woman’?
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I am just a girl, I live in a girls world, I am a girly girl with tomboy tendencys. I was brought up on a farm, so girl or boy, I learnt to drive anything, weld things that broke, how to use a workshop, work on cars/ tractors and other machinary. A normal girl living on the farm that worksthe farm will have the same, but it does not change the fact that I am a fem girly girl.
Most of my friends are girl girl, but dont ware dresses all the time, they love jeans, I seem to push my girly girl a bit more as thats the girl that has spent too long locked up inside and my inner self expresses it that way. A few of my GG friends even decribe them seleves as girly ‘boy with girl tendenys, with others even go as far as saying they are Girl, boy with boy tendencys. GG’s have the same problem to decribe were they fit too.
I have close friends that have got up set cos I talk about my cars too much, one of my tomboy trates, but they all admit they love to drive, its just I had to learn the extra info as I was sick of been ripped off.
So when people remind me of my TG past I tend to crash a bit inside, as I dont see myself as been in that world anymore, its just part of my past.
xxx
Kelly Jones
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Moderator
Quote:Page 2 of a very interesting thread…
but it is now moving away from the original question.Which asked not what we might consider living as a woman…
but rather what do those who determine eligibility for surgery consider it to be.In Jamilla’s words
Quote:Reading through a lot of the posts on transitioning there is a lot of talk about living as a woman before facial and/or SRS. Can anyone please let me know what would be defined as “living as a woman”? -
Thanks Amanda, I am more concerned with what the men in white coats may think.
Kristyana you have raised something that had run through my mind, and I have wondered if that was a factor behind practioners decisions. Even wondered if it became an issue with a GP wether a Stat. Dec. would change things??? For better or worse????
Anyway I have made an appointment to see a new Doctor, one’s taking new patients seem in short supply I had the choice of 2 so I asked for the most liberal minded one and I’m crossing my fingers.
Jamilla
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From the Harry Benjamin Guidelines –
Quote:Parameters of the Real-Life Experience. When clinicians assess the quality of a person’s real life experience in the desired gender, the following abilities are reviewed:
1. To maintain full or part-time employment;
2. To function as a student;
3. To function in community-based volunteer activity;
4. To undertake some combination of items 1-3;
5. To acquire a (legal) gender-identity-appropriate first name
6. To provide documentation that persons other than the therapist know that the patient functions in the desired gender role.So, to be considered for surgery, you need to change everything from your male identity and start living successfully using a female identity. This means all your records that you relate to in your day to day life and have started making considerable progress towards changing your physical form – hormones etc. You need to have maintained this for a minimum of 12 months before you can even be considered for surgery.
However, to begin hormone treatment, you don’t need to do all this as this treatment is reversible. You do need a letter of recommendation from a recognised gender psychiatrist and a visit to an endocrinologist. Your local GP should NOT be able to prescribe gender altering medications but is required to give your referrals to the appropriate specialists. I found I had to provide my doctor with the names and contact details for the right people for me to see. It is advised that you should be able to demonstrate gender dysphoria for a considerable period of time and have at least started some progress towards transitioning for at least the previous 3 months. Beard removal, going out dressed, told your family and friends. There are many ways to avoid this legal protocol, but I would not recommend them. It’s much safer to work within the system. Hormones CAN screw up your body if not administered and monitored properly.
There are plenty of on line references for you to check up. Not least of all the “Harry Benjamin Guidelines for Transgender Care”.
This is not a game that we play. It is VERY serious stuff. If you want to skirt around the rules because of embarrassment – then you are making the wrong choice.
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Hi Portia ,
I know im different & as to the Harry Benjamin Guidelines , For me that is a farce pure & simple I never did any of those ,
never had dysphoria ,
You see my bone of contension is it does not apply to every one & apart from way out of date it should have been scraped long ago.I all so know some adhear to this i dont . part of my difference.
I functioned as a person it has nothing to do with being male or female , in a role , what role may that be , as a human beingIv had S R S & B A & did not change my name till long after tho i still have my name male or female. noel.or noeleena,
& because many of us are different we dont do those things or abide by them.
yea i know im a pain in the rear ,
as you know i told the Psych & endo , what I was doing & where i was going tho my age & forthrightness had a lot to do with that i did not spend any more than 5 hours with them H R T & with in 3 years S R S,
& that was up to me as well.& make no mistake i know whats involved
The part of considered for surgery & doing all those things youv said i did nothing of those ,
& because of some of my differences i did not fall under this way that youv been disccusing here.
All i m saying there are exceptions to this, as iv been through it
The other point i will raise is for those of us who are intersex things can be done differently.
Hence my saying as i have, & i think there are a few who are like me tho different yet again we need to see this side of things as well.
Now im not getting at you it’s this american mind set thats not changed as we have
in fact it was never brought up here in our Hostpital ,so any way no bigge .
…noeleena….
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Hi Noeleena
Thank you for your comments. What you and a few others demonstrate is that we are not all of the same mold. Believe me when I tell you I agree with you.
There are many different approaches to this issue. What Jamilla was asking was what the “men in the white coats” are looking for.
The fact that some of us can get to where we need to be by going outside the guidelines is only proof of how far we have come. Yes, that information is outdated, but it is also what many of the “professionals” use when they are stuck with people like us and they are not sure of what to do.
I was “outside” the guidelines when I was approved for hormone treatment, but only just. I had started beard removal and informed family and close friends. I had also started making arrangements at work. I hadn’t changed my name or even been in “public” dressed. But I knew what it was that I needed to do.
Just goes to show that we just need to keep trying. I see any obstacles put in my way as just another test of my resolve. I am grateful that my journey has been a successful one – so far. “If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again!”
Thanks and huggs to you.
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At my first & only visit to the Flinders Gender Clinic, I was interviewed by a Clinical Psychologist who had co-authored a paper suggesting our sexuality was as diverse as the general community, & that 70% of us had no interest in men. This gay man’s opening statement to me was “I can’t help you until you’ve come to terms with your homosexuality”. Never been back to the Flinder’s Gender Clinic since. I was seeking some professional guidance with my non-conforming gender identity.
Not a nice person. Later his ‘mates’ – men dictacting what was acceptable female presentation, refused to refer me to the Monash Gender Clinic, but instead to a trannyhawk in Sydney who was, at that time, being investigated for serious misconduct with gender non-conforming clients. Found guilty.
What makes us female? We do. It’s how we live, giving ourselves permission to be ourselves. Nothing’s compulsory. One friend who lives HRT & genital surgery free. She lives as the woman she is. She’s a woman.
We have a very big fight ahead of us. A cabal of homosexuality obsessed American & Canadian Psychiatrists & Psychologists are determined to codefy us by their definitions of our sexuality. i.e., we’re in truth homosexual men who are autogynaephilic, or we’re in denial. No, these crazies are in denial. We’re women. And please, the emphasis is on our really being male, and our claimed denial of our sexuality. There’s a refusal to acknowledge that the issue is about our gender identity, or that we’re women.
It’s extreme repression of us as women – we’re in this world solely for the sexual gratification of men. This is evident in these crazies determination to amend the DSM-V. (I must point out , these bastards are equally determined to dump all of this same exploitative shit upon the intersexed – an undeniable product of biology, nature. No, they’re in denial also – really homosexual men) – isn’t it nice to know some of us were born to be gay men.
Yes, I know we’re dealing with our own daily real life issues, – we’re women, trying to get on with living our lives, & we live with a huge number of barriers, just like our cis-sisters live with (chatels)
What’s being a woman. I want to be defined by who I am, not what some people believe I was, never to be allowed to change, nor by another person’s obsession about my sexuality. I’m 58 years old. Please, don’t tell me that at some point over the past 25 years I’ve not thought about my sexuality, & then moved on with my life, as the woman I am. Being a woman is about living my life.
I don’t object to the need for some form of gate-keeping. Harry-Benjamin set us some not unachievable guidelines. How other gate-keepers use or mis-use these guidelines isn’t reason to throw them away. Where does Harry Benjamin dictate what our sexuality must be. It’s focus is upon our gender identity, & supports us to achieving this. Our sexuality doesn’t rate.
What makes us female. In truth, we just are, as absolute as the day our cis-sisters were born & decreed to be. What makes us women is how we live, how we think, how we see ourselves.
There is an increasing professional push to (homo)sexualise us. It’s the next generation we need to stand up for. We have our (diverse) sexuality, but our sexuality is not, & should never be allowed to defines us. But this is currently what the Psych profession are militantly seeking to force onto us. See! We’re all really just gay me, in denial. This is arrant bull-shit. I’m a woman, for no other reason than that I am.
Why would I change myself so totally to cease to hold any attraction for a male attracted man.
The question is unnecessary. Breathe & just let go. I’ve a load of washing & a 19 year old son to chase up. Bye.
Blessings all
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As other members have stated – this all comes back to the guidelines set by health professionals for the eventual SRS. (Sex Reassignment Surgery), which Portia has kindly posted earlier.
These guidelines are suggested for people who are considering transitioning and SRS is the only surgery where most surgeons require a letter of recommendation from a Psych or similar person who knows the patient, and again this is usually for a period of 2 years.
I feel these guidelines are not there to punish or exclude people, but rather to just make sure that the patient is making the right decision and can follow the points that Portia noted. In my case I was happy to have the advice of a health professional with all this, and I was happy to pay for this service. All she was concerned with was for me to be able to work and live in the community. These people usually have your best interests at heart.
Transitioning, as others have stated is perhaps one of the biggest life changing things that can happen to a person – so yes it IS a big deal and you defiantly want to get it right. No doubt members have heard of cases where perhaps people didn’t get it ‘right’ and some have ended up killing themselves.
So I feel this ‘living as a woman’ is usually something that a transitioning person would be doing anyway or at least want to do.
As members have stated, with other surgeries the surgeons do not require any letter from a Psych, it is only SRS that requires this. So breast implants and facial surgery can be done at any time. In fact I had some facial surgery before this 2 year period was completed.
To start HRT etc you do not have to ‘live as a woman’ and my Psych told me that many of her trans patients taking HRT did not. However I always felt that presenting as a woman, no matter how good or bad, to health professionals does show a commitment on your part and perhaps makes their decisions a little bit easier.
I do know of one case 1st hand where a trans person went in male clothes and actually had a difficult time convincing the health professional about her commitment – that may have been somewhat to do with her clothing choice perhaps…
So I suggest that the transitioning person actually embrace this 2 year period – it does go rather quickly , well it did in my case. I feel it is also about the right length of time as there are so many things to do regarding name change, telling friends, relatives etc. You also have to get your head around so many things and this time lets you do this. I am sure some members will disagree and of course that is their right. And yes I am sure there are ways to get around this 2 year period to have SRS – but my question would be as to why someone would want to do that.
Transitioning is not for everyone, and it is only this (SRS Surgery) that requires the ‘Living as a woman’ period.
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Agree totally with Portia Christina and Bambi. The timings for ‘living as a woman’ or the ‘real life test’ as it is sometimes known are variable though. For Monash is was 18 months last time I looked although 12 months is ok for overseas surgery.
There are multiple factors in play as far as gender psychs go. If you are working every day, interacting with people, just living your life as a woman, developing relationships etc then you are having a different experience to someone living at home and going down to the local shops occasionally and I know (because I was at a gathering where this was stated) that gender psychs are looking at the qualitive aspects of your experiences as a woman as well as the length of time you have done so. If it’s surgery you are chasing then the depth of your feelings for change will I’m sure also be taken into account.
The psychs will do their best to ensure that you truly know your own mind before allowing you to have very life altering surgery. They are also there as guides for your transition. I would cousel against transitioning without a good psych behind you….they really do try to help lol.
Oh, and the requirements for hormones are either a period living ‘as a woman’ OR 3 months intensive (read weekly) psychotherapy.
Gwen -
Thank you all for your comments, you have eased my mind considerably. I did want to go about this the “proper way” I just didn’t want stay on a particular path and then find out it would not appease the “powers to be” and find say in 2 years time I get to wait another 2 years.
My intention was to start at the top and work my way down over the years anyway. To me passing as a woman is important personally, but I know that would be a lot harder not being on HRT (I’ve already worn out an epilator head). I was unsure I felt there may have been a contradiction to this in so much as HRT improves “passing as a woman” but you need to “pass as a woman” before HRT.
Guess I better rectify my winter wardrobe before I see the shrink.
Jamilla
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Hi ,
as a point of interest . i rang the Monash hospital to see wether they could do my surgery , i explained i was a woman & needed my surgery ,They said we can have you come over & with in three days you can have your sugery ,
okay at a cost of 30.000 $ I did not need to bring any thing at all just turn up & thats it, It was confirmed there & then. on the day i rang..
Now belive it or not this was the case,As to the A P A in the states , time they were put in the boxing ring & taken down once & for all if you all know what they are doing youd be going in with A ak 47 loaded & unloked .
Of cause i dont belive any one should just walk in & have surgery because i have seen some who should not go that rout we all know why.
the gate keepers are not the main detail iits about cost & tax money being spent wisely as well. there does need to be some safe guards & i know that, tho there should be some changes in our reguard ,
The other point is i paid for my own surgery & all costs so there is a difference when you do your own that for most of us says im for real & why would i spend out 16 .000 $ for surgery . for fun dont think so ,
& i had to work for most of it 95 % another story put it this way,
If my life was worth liveing & i was driven with out reguard in a sence to my own well being then ether im mad or i wonted to live & when you have no money at all to pay for your surgery’ s & prospects were grim & you have 8 monthes to come up with it . then you may just have a little idear of what i went through .
not including Jos & our family, for 8 bloody years of hell ,
Then i think i know exacly what i was doing. with out any gate keepers .Portia,
The men in white coats only says one thing to me im being taken to the asylum funny farm.. & yes iv worked there. you know im nuts , love it, you know what i mean this goes back 56 years, for me.
& you know im bloody different & contrary any way.
& thanks so much for posting ,
take this the rightway.. please
im nuts any way , its just we would not be here unless we were . we do have to laugh at our selfs,
Thamks every one ,
…noeleena…
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Wow.. What a big thread so quickly – some really good comments, and unfortunately I haven’t had chance to read it all but I will when I am not so rushed. Thought I would add this in the mean time as I didn’t see comment about it during my initial ‘skim’…
Clothing.. If you are a welder whether male (GM), female (GG), or trans (MtF/FtM) you would expect to wear the same safety gear, and from personal experience I’d expect that you would be turning up in jeans and t-shirt as a male or female welder. You certainly won’t be turning up in a light french silk blouse and a black body hugging pencil skirt..!
RLE is living as a woman (for a MtF), and that doesn’t mean you have to wear anything specifically, it means you have to *live* as *yourself* in your desired gender.
When it comes to doctors and psych’s every MtF that I know that turned up ‘dressed’ to their doctors got sent off for a compulsory psychiatric assessment. Those who didn’t were given the option… go figure..!
Take care,
Mhix
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Hi , After living full time for 2 years I have been referred too Monash on July 11th and 12th to see psych ,endo and surgeone .Hopefully I will be given a firm date for SRS !! Please keep your fingers crossed for me girls ,I ‘ve been wanting this for so long !
Cheers Ella-Kristine
