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TgR Wall Forums Exploring Gender Inter-gender Issues X marks the gender: what to call someone who isn’t a he or s

  • X marks the gender: what to call someone who isn’t a he or s

    Posted by Adrian on 02/04/2014 at 9:41 am

    From http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/x-marks-the-gender-what-to-call-someone-who-isnt-a-he-or-she-20140402-35xwp.html

    Article By Tim Elliott (SMH)

    Quote:
    They are not a “she” or a “he” or even a “she/he”, not a “him” or a “her”, and certainly not an “it”. They are not “herself” and “himself”, and what is theirs is no longer “hers” or “his”. Exactly what they are, language-wise, remains unclear. But one thing’s for sure: when it comes to the lexicon of a new, gender-neutral reality, it pays to watch your language.

    Wednesday’s High Court decision in the case of 52-year-old Sydney resident Norrie upholds the rights of gender non-specific people to be something other than “male” or “female” on their birth certificate.

    But, as Norrie’s lawyer, Emily Christie, points out, “the judgement concerns only what Births, Deaths and Marriages is obliged to put on their forms, not general day-to-day use.”

    So what is the rule here? What pronoun should you attach to a person of no gender?

    “I’m sorry, but it’s complicated,” says the president of Organisation Intersex International Australia, Morgan Carpenter.

    Norrie has expressed a preference for the Germanic “hir” (for her/his), and “zie” for “he/she”.

    A range of other gender-blind pronouns have come in and out of circulation over the years, from old Spivak, named after the American mathematician Michael Spivak (“E smiled”, “Eir voice boomed”, “E loves eirself”), and new Spivak (“Ey smiled”, Ey loves emself”), to the Humanist lexicon (“Hu laughed”, “I called hum”, “Hu loves humself”), and Jayce’s system (“”Jee smiled”, “Jee loves jemself”).

    But history shows invented pronouns to have a low survival rate in mainstream language. Carpenter says he doesn’t “worry too much” about Spivaks or any other of the systems. “My suggestion is to just ask people how they want to be referred to. And if you can’t ask them, just use their name.”

    Carpenter says that the issue is complicated by the fact Norrie is not, in fact, Australia’s first genderless person.

    “Alex MacFarlane, an intersex person born in Victoria, was the first person to receive a passport with an X sex marker, in 2003, on the basis of a Victorian ‘indeterminate’ birth certificate. Last year the Commonwealth government enabled any adult to choose an ‘X’ gender marker.”

    “To be honest,” Carpenter says, “if someone has a non-binary gender identity I use their name or ‘they’. The third person singular was good enough for Shakespeare. In Much Ado About Nothing, he writes: ‘God send everyone their heart’s desire.'”

    Carol replied 10 years, 8 months ago 2 Members · 5 Replies
  • 5 Replies
  • Anonymous

    Guest
    03/04/2014 at 8:35 am

    I did watch this news report and have seen other reports on this issue.
    The question that the article quoted is trying to address (poorly unfortunately) is how are genderless pronouns to enter a language. The author is correct in the implication that we cannot legislate language. Language evolves in and of itself.
    Current language conventions really only easily support genderless pronouns when talking about a group of individuals. A specified individual can certainly be referenced by name but where the name is unknown current english language really only easily supports gendered pronouns. At the moment it seems the best option is to where possible use a name or specification where possible but otherwise it would seem we are stuck with using a gendered pronoun that seems to fit with the presentation the individual makes.

  • Adrian

    Member
    03/04/2014 at 8:51 am

    How about this?

    Quote:
    I am replying to an article where the author suggests that “we are stuck with using a gendered pronoun that seems to fit”.

    I am not in agreement with their suggestion, as they have overlooked the perfectly acceptable use of the “singular they”. This doesn’t involve the defining of new and ill understood pronouns, and doesn’t involve people trying to guess if my presentation is marginally more boy or girl.

    I recommend that they (and anyone else who is interested) read the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

    There you are – I managed to talk about Adina without needing to how Adina was dressed sitting at the computer writing on the forums!!!

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    04/04/2014 at 7:53 am

    Hi,

    With out adding to much what if and for myself its not an if what gender or sex are you when you are sexless nore male or female, sex or sexual no sexual organs, you cant have sex as is normal for a male or female .

    I know being intersex does sort of cover it yet really it does not,

    …noeleena…

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    28/05/2014 at 5:31 am

    As a non binary person my first choice is ze instead of he/she and zir ( pronounced like their but with a Z sound instead of the th in their.
    Everyone has their own preference within the nonbinary Trans community it is best to ask what they prefer. And to use that or their name.

  • Carol

    Member
    28/05/2014 at 9:32 am

    I guess a parallel is the gradual normalisation of Ms rather than forcing women to be Miss or Mrs. It needs an activist minority with a good argument and then mainstream adoption. The very small group of non-binary activists need not just a good argument but something really easy for the majority to get their heads around. Lots of TG people want to be “he” or “‘she” and knowing who doesn’t really means you have to know them personally.