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lesbian transphobia
we may not often encounter views that are disparaging towards our existence, however, here is a wake up call. i can’t say how prevalent these views are, perhaps some of you may have experienced this directly. anyway, here is what some in the lesbian community think about transwomen.
The Point, ‘Transwomen’, Is A Simple One: I Will Never Think Of You As Women
01/09/2010 by Valerie M
And I will certainly not think of you as female. You see, you can make all the arguments to myself and to my sistren that you like, but at the end of the day, it’s a pointless exercise.
You will always be male to me. For a while, years ago, you almost convinced me, due to my too-generous nature, that you would be doing no harm by having access to the word ‘woman’ if you wished. But of course, you are males and always behave as such, and you were never going to be satisfied with that. As I have pointed out before on this blog, give anything to a man and he will be back for more; more and more until every woman is bled dry.
So no, I’m not going to call you transwomen, and I am certainly not going to call you trans women. You are men. Dressing up as women never made males into females on Hallowe’en, and it doesn’t now. Cutting off penises never made eunuchs into women, and it doesn’t now. Even if you do pay someone to hollow out the space left behind.
You are not female and you never will be. You can bellow, you can post threats to women, you can hack women’s email accounts, you can post women’s personal details and put us at risk; all these are typically male behaviours, so why on earth would they make me more likely to see you as female? Answer: they don’t. They confirm what I am saying. You could be standing over me beating me to death, as I’m sure you would like to, and as I know you have publicly fantasised about doing to radfems before, but do you think that would make me see you as more female? Do you think as I lay dying I would be thinking how wrong I am; how you are so obviously a sister? No, it would make me see you as a monster, just as everyone else would.
When I know something for sure about myself, I don’t need others’ validation. If someone disagrees with me about some fundamental aspect of my humanity, I laugh and say ‘Whatever dude, later.’ And off I go to do my own thing. The very fact that you are so hell-bent on convincing us that you are really really women tells me that you don’t even believe your own bullshit, and why should you? Men ‘becoming’ women, or being ‘born in the wrong bodies’; a ridiculous claim!
Performing femininity, however careful a study you make of it, has nothing whatsoever to do with being female. If you are very skilled I may not notice your maleness at first, but that is not the same as thinking a transgendered male is female. As soon as I realise you are a transgendered male, I will in the same instant stop thinking of you as a woman, or female. You do not have female bodies. You do not have female genetics. You do not have the experience of growing up as a female. I am a lesbian and I want to be with women, and that means not you.
If I never notice your maleness, it’s probably not because you’re so good at acting like a woman; no, it’s more likely that I wasn’t paying much attention to you because transgendered males that do pass are way too femmed-up for me anyway. Of course, that is the only way you can pass. You will never be able to look naturally womanly, like we do, because your maleness would be instantly obvious. If you want to pass you will always have to be overly made-up, coiffed, and be-sparkled, which may fool my brief glance into thinking you are a woman but will also, ironically, render me uninterested in you as one. As I said, it’s a pointless exercise.
I know you have managed to convince some women to buy into this pitiful subculture of yours, and I also know what you are thinking when you get them to scold women like me for refusing to enable your delusions: you are not seeing them as your champions, oh no. More like what abusive fraternity members are thinking of pledges when they enact violence on them and are rewarded with ‘Please sir, may I have another?’
You may be able to enshrine your delusions into law as it is mostly written by, and meant to serve, men anyway; go ahead. It has absolutely no effect on my opinion. You cannot control what I think, and I do not think of you any more as women than I ever did, ie., not one bit.
It doesn’t matter what you say or do. You will never be able to make me think you are female.[/quote]
and there are some interesting comments if you log on to the web site. personally, i have to say that there is one point that i actually agree with.
Quote:Performing femininity, however careful a study you make of it, has nothing whatsoever to do with being female.because i want to wear a check flannel shirt, jeans and blunnies, does that make me less of a woman? does make up and nail polish make me more of a female?
but generally, i find the sentiments expressed here are unsparingly myopic, the genralisations pretty thick, and overall, insulting. but i am an undying supporter of free speech, so although whatever it was that motivated her to write this may have been pretty traumatic for her to feel this way, i don’t have a problem with her saying what she says.
thoughts?
virginia xo
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22 Replies
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I read through a few of those blogs and the ‘about’ page. It’s a typical radical feminist rant and frankly I want to have as little to do with them as they with me. I know what they write is rubbish because as I read it I’m going ‘WTF?…..WTF?…..WTF?….”. I understand that they hate transwomen and they would never want to have sex with one and that’s fine. There ARE differences and unfortunately we can never escape the effects testosterone has had on our bodies….not totally. But reading this rubbish is like reading a man’s account of what it’s like to menstruate. But like men, they know best, they know how we think and feel and we will never change their minds.
You know thinking about it, the logic they apply is that I don’t accept you as a woman therefore you are a guy. Ours tends start from the proposition “I know I’m not a guy…….” We will never agree.
Gwen -
Some broad generalisations, but when you don’t respond is a stereotypical manner, these wymim are quick to show you their ugly side – violent, just like the men they really are.
I’m living through this whole femi-nazi tranny bashing AGAIN at work. Sorry, I have a mental illness. Unfortunately, my clients are idiots who think I’m a nice person (this is actually in writing), so these zealots must try to prove them wrong. After all. If I truly was a NICE person, then they’d like me too.
More significant is the double standard. Why do these mysandrogistic men haters tolerate transmen, and other forms of cross-gender presentation within the lesbian community?
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Hi Christina, when you read it it’s not just apparent that they hate us, the hate is palpable. They also seek to hurt us, exclude us, invalidate us and if they could destroy us. It’s like they never lost the boy germ thing from primary school and unfortunately for us we have been touched by ‘boy germs’. Julia Serano’s “Whipping Girl” makes interesting if academic reading and puches holes in most of their arguements. Unfortunately this is not about logic or arguement but is a visceral emotional reaction to their misandry and they are universally misandrist.
If you want to annoy them call them cisgendered. If you do though you can expect a full blooded verbal assault.
Thinking about it again I wonder if it (misandry) is a form of self hate. They freak me out in a way that only guys can…..I really wonder……….Gwen
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And for something completely different…..we are not without some friends at least. I found these a breath of fresh air compared to the hate filled diatribe in the original post. Occasional strong language contained within.
http://menstrualpoetry.com/trans-hate-continues-lead-violence
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/02/radical-feminism.html
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/08/andrea-dworkin-on-transgender.html
The last posting seems to indicate that something went wrong somewhere in the feminist movement starting with Janice Raymond who’s work “The Transsexual Empire” is one long transphobic rant. Read it and you will truly wonder if she is entirely sane. (I’m voting for NO!)
Others, Robin Morgan and Mary Daly followed. I haven’t read their work.Gwen
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thanks for these posts, gwendoline. it’s tiresome reading such biased thought, full of such hate and anger. the rad-fems seem to be firmly entrenched in the “gender is binary camp”. and that’s exactly what we have been fighting against for so long. you would think a marginalised group would empathise and understand that viewpoint (perhaps not – how many african-americans voted against same sex marriage?). i really wonder what it is that drives that behaviour with such passion. it is almost kkk-ish or nazism in the true sense of the word. just change the name of the victim and the diatribe is pretty much verbatim.
v xo
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The good thing about this kind of opinion piece is that you can be dead certain what they think of you!! The poor woman is so certain of her beliefs and so dedicated to those beliefs, she puts herself in the camp of the racists , bigots and religious ratbags who will never see another person’s point of view and refuse to even hear another person’s opinions or experiences. She reminds me that I have heard many people express this degree of hate for Black people, Jews, homosexuals etc and so is nothing new. This IMO makes their opinions worthless. Surely a mind worth valuing is one that works on reasoning and not on blind prejudice?
I think that she does make a few valid points but they are wrecked by the general tone of hate and disgust. I know a number of ” radical” lesbians who would be disturbed by the tone of this blog. They tend to be accepting of other peoples lives and look more at how one behaves rather than what you are.
I believe that the degree of her anger and vitriol reflects personal hurt ( only she knows why) and for this I feel sadness for her pain. On the other hand , I also think that ratbags are best ignored and if they get too out of hand or violent , they should be medicated and restrained for the good of all concerned!!!!
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Hitler used to think the Jews and blacks weren’t human and no-one could convince him otherwise either.
I will continue to “perform femininity” for as long as I am able and the radical feminist nazi’s can all pat each other on the back saying what a great job they are doing alienating a smaller sub group than themselves – the men in the guise of women (at least that is how she see’s it). Sort of reminds me of playground bullying at school.
She is enititled to her opinion. Unfortunately she seems unable to keep it to herself.
If all we are doing is seeking validation from others, why is she publishing this nonsense? Isn’t she seeking validation too? Me thinks the kettle and the pot are black. Personally, I don’t give a hoot what she thinks. And I hope there are a lot more people like me and not like her.
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I’ve met a bunch of lesbians and, fortunately, the ones who hate us that badly seem to be the minority now.
Even back when radical feminism was popular, which it isn’t now, not all feminists hated us – the reason Janice Raymond went nuts and wrote The Transsexual Empire in the first place was because she called up a women-only group to tell them “OMG one of your women is REALLY A MAN!!!” and they were like “We know, idiot, but she’s not a man now, she’s one of us.”
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Just a hate-filled rant…..why give it the time of the day? Even bigots are entitled to an opinion, but better they keep it to themselves perhaps. There seems to be no point to rubbish like this other than self-aggrandisement. It serves no positive purpose and I continue to wonder at the need for some to spew needless hatred at others. It makes me very sad!
XXX
Samantha -
Maximum warp in the lesbian opinion there, were the world as simple as the writer of the blog then neither lesbians, trangender or anyone of differance would have a place in it, sad for that writer that the world is such a terrible place, but honesty is the best policy they say so guess you could not say it is not that at least, that said opinions are like bum holes.
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I agree with all of you. This is hate mail pure and simple. And as sexist and bigoted as they come. It is very sad for this individual and those that respond to her positively that they hold so much hate in their hearts and beings. So debilitating for them.
Fortunately as already stated this is a very small minority. The worst part is that it can instill fear in us when there is more than enough already.
I stand proud as a trans woman. But I would always avoid lesbian hang-outs that accept this kind of disgusting attitude and behaviour. To allow access to these sexist bigots is to say its OK. And as also already stated they are no better than the male equivalent.
Fortunately most Lesbians and especially the younger ones accept and support us as do the majority of the gay community even if they dont understand us.
Best wishes
Roisin x. -
The sad reality is this level of antipathy towards gender variance – exclusively M2F, is not isolated to a few radical lesbians. Within the Health Service in which I am (still) employed, it is rampant. The bulk of these bigots are not lesbian, a small core are closeted bisexual women projecting their guilt & self hate onto us, and the hate preaching Christian heretics; and other bigots join in – mob rule.
Repeatedly, the response on those occasions when I have voiced objection to the more offensive or threatening personal transphobic abuse is that I have a mental illness. Incidents have included being told I have no right living in Newcastle (a most tolerant community and my family home since 1830) and that I should be “selling your arse on Oxford Street” – this was said to me in front of patients. Having a man raise his fists and demand I fight him – “I don’t like you”. I was “over-reacting” (bullshit I was). A pathetic homophobic bigot angry when he’d read in a newspaper the proposal to allow correction of gender on birth records.
I work in a large institutional environment staffed predominantly by women. Yes, there is a visible lesbian ‘clique’ within this institution – generally they just ignore me, and refuse to use correct pronouns. There are far more heterosexual women who hold these extreme attitudes. The workplace bullies and control freaks.
(One significant feature of “control behaviour” is the maligning & denigration of the target/victim to their peers)
I’ve cited 2 incidents from ongoing regular abuse over 16 years – (I began my transition & HRT 25 years ago). I’m not going away. Then there’s the outrage that I would dare object.
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I have found in life there are people that you will never get on with for some silly reason. I will not matter what you do they will not change. Its Part of life.
The extracts I have read seem to be woman who hate men and anything to do with men, so they will pick and find something wrong with who ever they feel falls outside their lines of thought.
Other people with these thoughts will have their own reasons ranging from upbringing to personal experance and even outside infulance like churches. These people might see the light one day, but are not worth wasting another thought on.
My girl was attracted to me as I was fem, she even admitted that I was more fem then she was. I am not an act, I am just who I am. I dont run around saying I am transgender, I am just a girl and thats the way she treats me. Small differances are the same as any two people, she has a period, I dilate, both are just as much a pain.
So girls hold your heads high, smile and walk away. We are not here to change the world, just our world and those that touch us.
xxx KJ
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Quote:I’m living through this whole femi-nazi tranny bashing AGAIN at work. Sorry, I have a mental illness. Unfortunately, my clients are idiots who think I’m a nice person (this is actually in writing), so these zealots must try to prove them wrong. After all. If I truly was a NICE person, then they’d like me too.
christina – sounds like an awful predicament you are in. sometimes, it’s difficult enough to enjoy your work (as opposed to simply putting in the hours for the wages banked into your bank account), but to have to endure the climate that you describe, would be daunting for the best of us. nevertheless, it seems to me (depending on the amount of documented proof that you may have) that you have a pretty good case of a personal grievance against your employer.
i’m sure you are aware of the following:
http://www.gendercentre.org.au/discrimination.htm
i would be bringing (in writing) this legislation to the attention of your human resources department and a detailed description of your experiences. you may have done this already. if you have, i would be interested as to how they respond.
kia kaha!
v xo
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Here is an interesting exercise to test the waters on just how lesbians view us in general and if they accept us.
Try and join Lesbian Match Maker as a Transgender person and see how far you get.
Please, do not pay any money before they approve your profile, because once they realise you are not a women, they delete you and with no refund forthwith, no matter how logical your argument is.
But, lesbians are allowed on male gay websites no problem.
Hmmm…..Hypocritical? You bet!
