• Transgender Media

  Andrew Denton – Enough Rope

  Posted by Adrian on 01/11/2006 at 10:43 am

  This is extract from an interview by Andrew Denton
  Broadcast on Monday 30th October 2006
  Source: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1776670.htm

  

  ANDREW DENTON: And joining me now, the Living Book, Claes Schmidt, aka Sara Lund and her borrower, Camilla Gisslow. Please make them welcome.

  ANDREW DENTON: And thank you both for being with us. Sara, I’ll start with you. How far back does the urge to express your femininity go?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: I know that I’ve been kind of different all my life but when I found out exactly what it was all about, I don’t know. When do you start to know things? Five, six, seven years, something.

  ANDREW DENTON: When did the word “transvestite” first come into your life?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: When I could read, somewhere around, eight, ten I saw it in a book. I saw a picture and I saw some guys and a beautiful woman and I read a text that the woman wasn’t a woman, it was a transvestite, so I thought, “Okay, that’s what I am.” I suddenly found a name of what I was doing, and I looked it up in the book, and that was not a nice experience.

  ANDREW DENTON: Why was that?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: In the book it says – it said, at that time, transvestite — a homosexual man who is dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex to get some kind of sexual relief or something, and I thought I was heterosexual, so I was kind of confused. What? Homosexual — when does that start? Does that come when you’re 12 or 15 or what? I didn’t know and I didn’t dare tell anybody. I didn’t dare ask anybody so – and you couldn’t read anything about this in the papers or anything on television or radio or – transvestites didn’t exist at all, anywhere. So it was kind of lonely.

  ANDREW DENTON: Very difficult, I’m sure. Did you still, whenever you could, take the opportunity to dress up as a female?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: Yeah, but I didn’t have so much things. You know, you’ve got to hide it somewhere where nobody can find it. Your parents shouldn’t find it or anybody else should find it, and it’s a terrible situation to be a secret transvestite, since you have to hide. You even have to wish the one you love out of the house so you can dress sometimes.

  ANDREW DENTON: Because you became married and you – you kept this a secret until you were 40. When did you come to reveal yourself?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: I didn’t. My wife found out. She was away for some days, and I took the opportunity to dress and I was living out the whole thing and had a real good time, and then that happened, what used to happen – when people go away, they come back. But she came back a little early, a little too early, so I wasn’t really ready and I had to go to work and she went to bed and she could feel there was a smell of perfume in the bed and – you know women. She tried – she looked around in the flat everywhere. She looked after tracks – for tracks – what had happened, what was around, and she found some receipt from a shop where I had bought some bra or something and she found a – a box with hosiery, and she confronted me directly, and I said, “There is nobody else, there’s nobody else, it’s only me,” and at that second I knew my life was over.

  Nobody can understand this. It doesn’t work. But it did, and she said – she said, “I don’t care if you prefer to dress like the same way half of the population of the world does but don’t lie to me.” It was the lie that was the big thing for her. To me, it was the fact that I was not normal. Now I know I’m – the problem is not I’m not normal. I know I’m a little bit different.

  ANDREW DENTON: That moment when you had to reveal to your wife your true nature, that must have been absolutely terrifying?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: You bet. You bet it was. I thought my life was over. I thought, “This is the end,” so I thought, “I can just as well tell the truth. This is the – this is the way it is, this is the way I am.”

  ANDREW DENTON: What did her acceptance mean to you?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: It meant everything, because it meant that I suddenly could live a life, and, before, it took all my time. It was always on my mind, always, always, always and that’s a thing we should think about, that it takes a lot of energy to hide something within yourself. That’s why it’s important that we let people talk and let people be who they are, instead of who the society expect us to be. It takes a lot of energy to keep a secret, and you can use that energy to do a lot of other things.

  The biggest adventure that you can achieve is to live the life you dream of, and that’s what I’m doing right now, thanks to my wife.

  ANDREW DENTON: When you were first approached to be a living book what did you think?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: “Great. Fantastic idea.” I heard about it and I thought, “Well, why didn’t they pick me?” – because people have a lot of strange feelings and strange thoughts about transvestism, mostly because they don’t know anything about it.

  ANDREW DENTON: What sort of people have borrowed you, Sara, and what did they want to know?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: Normal people, ordinary people. There was one transvestite who’s been hiding for 72 years and he came up and he looked around and said, “Well, I’m like you,” and I thought, “What do you mean, ‘Like you’? Are from Malmo, are you from Sweden? Are you from – are you a marketing director? Are you what?” “I’m a transvestite.” He didn’t look at it at all and that’s the way it is. You can see, you can tell a person – if he’s a transvestite or not and he’s been hiding it for 72 years, and it was – I was the first person he told that he was a transvestite.

  ANDREW DENTON: Camilla, thank you for your patience while we’re talking to Sara there. You’re in the library with a friend. How…

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: Yeah.

  ANDREW DENTON: …Was it that you decided to borrow Sara?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: First when I saw Sara, I’ve never met a transvestite before. I’ve seen some transvestites before but I never talked to any one and I thought it could be very exciting to ask her some questions, because I remember a couple of years back I lived in a very small town here in Sweden and – and there was a transvestite but he was always, always on his own and everybody sort of didn’t want to talk to him and they talked behind his back and stuff. And I felt so sorry for him, so when I saw Sara, I felt that I really, really wanted to talk to her and ask things that I was wondering about.

  ANDREW DENTON: What was your first impression of Sara when you were sitting opposite her talking to her, what were you thinking?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: The first thing was that, “This is really a transvestite,” because you can clearly see that it is a man and – but very beautiful – so – very strong, she’s very strong. She’s not – she’s not scared of being who she is and – and very comfortable talking to also.

  ANDREW DENTON: After you’ve been talking to Sara for a while you came to the decision to introduce your son, Sam, to Sara. Can you tell us Sam’s story?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: Well, Sam is actually born a girl, like it’s a girl, but ever since she was a very little baby, she’s been more like a boy, and at first I thought she was more like a tomboy but when she was four, five, that’s the first time when Sam told me that, “Mum, I am a boy, I’m not a girl.” And first I thought that, “Well, maybe – maybe she doesn’t really know but then I saw – we were all like her sisters and me were sort of like, “No, of course you’re a girl and you have braids and dresses.” And she was like, “But doesn’t boys have dresses and braids?” I said, “No,” and that’s when she cut off her hair and she refused wearing dresses and skirts after that and, and slowly I just realised that she’s sincere. And it’s been difficult because I’ve been scared of what if she will be bullied and what will people say and – and so it’s been a journey with Sam. So it’s for me as a mother how can I be a more, supportive mum to help Sam to be strong and secure within himself and, and confident, so that’s why – that was really one of the main reasons why I wanted to talk to Sara

  ANDREW DENTON: Sara when you first saw Sam, what did you think?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: Nice boy.

  ANDREW DENTON: You – you saw Sam directly as a boy?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: No doubt. Yeah, I – he looks like a boy. He acted like a boy, talked like a boy. I mean, I wouldn’t think he was some – anything else.

  ANDREW DENTON: And, Camilla, how did Sam react to Sara?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: That was very interesting because when I phoned Sam and asked if he wanted to join us at the library and he said, “Yeah, yeah I’ll be there right away,” I was a little bit scared that maybe he would think, as I thought when I saw Sara, that this is really a transvestite – maybe Sam would feel a little bit intimidated or – or scared but the complete opposite really. It was interesting because Sam just completely relaxed and – and became himself and showed another side that he hadn’t really shown me before either. It was like Sam was feeling like, “I’m one of – we’re the same,” even though they’re not the same but it’s like Sara and – and, I guess…

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: Transpersons.

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: Yeah. Transpersons feel that they’re maybe a group, I guess, and – and so I could see that Sam felt that he was a part of that group, so he felt more – he stretches back and – and was very confident in the way he was talking and the questions he asked Sara was very confident and – and strong. It was very interesting to see.

  ANDREW DENTON: Sara, transvestism and trans-sexuality are different things. What advice were you able to give Sam?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: He already has the answer, “Be yourself.” But the most difficult thing is to find out who you actually are. We have this either of thinking, you’re either a man or a woman, and a transsexual is also either a man or a woman. There are people who – who just want to be human – want to be human being. They don’t want to be looked upon as men or women. They just want to be people. So there are a lot of thoughts you have to go through, who are you really? Are you an either or person or are you a both or an either person or who are you actually?

  ANDREW DENTON: Camilla, what did Sam take from his meeting with Sara?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: When we came home and we sat down and talked about the meeting, he felt that he felt more secure of trying to tell his friends about himself, and after that meeting he actually started to tell some of his friends that he felt that he was actually a boy, not a girl, that he’s born into the wrong body, so to speak.

  ANDREW DENTON: Was he accepted by his friends when he told them this?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: At first they were like a little bit peculiar like, “But how can you be a boy when you are a girl?” And he was explaining how he was feeling inside and how he’s always felt. And they start to have these discussions about when he grows up. He said that, “When I grow up I’m going to have the operation and I’m going to take away my breasts and all these things.” And they were really concerned about that and say, “But, well – but don’t do that. You will go bald.” And they had all these different kind of beliefs that, “You will get cancer,” and then they all came and sat down and discussed this with me and asked questions. And I think kids are very open and general but it’s – it’s our, the parents, the grown-ups that really gives them prejudices and stuff. Because some of the parents didn’t like it, and one of the parents actually forbids Sam to play with one of their sons, because they were afraid that they will make him be a transsexual too, like if he will be a girl.

  So it’s been a lot of conflicts like that, and it goes up and down. Sometimes it’s – it’s not a problem. Sometimes, when they can’t really understand a thing, they tease him, and he can be very sad and he doesn’t want to go to school and stuff, but in general I feel that it’s been positive – but it’s more the parents, I think, that has a problem with it, not the kids.

  ANDREW DENTON: Has meeting Sara been a turning point for you?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: Yeah, I feel more positive in my role as a parent, what I can do to help Sam to grow up and be strong and confident in himself.

  ANDREW DENTON: Camilla, you would like to be a book yourself now, is that correct?

  CAMILLA GISSLOW: Yeah, that would be fantastic, that would be fantastic.

  ANDREW DENTON: And, Sara, what sort of book would you like to borrow next time?

  SARA/ CLAES LUND: That’s a difficult one. The biggest prejudices we have is the feeling that we don’t have any – so I’m going to be there and see what I find, and there’s something interesting to talk about with everybody. And I would also like to say that the most important thing for everybody is to, as I used to say, and I said to Sam as well, “Be yourself. Everybody else is already taken.”

  Adrian replied 18 years, 3 months ago 1 Member · 0 Replies
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