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Androgyny versus crossdressing
I was wondering the other day about androgyny and just where the limits stop and one moves over into “crossdressing”. I tend to present myself in an androgynys way in public nowadays [ as I see it] but wonder if others see me as dressing as a woman. I am not sure I can see the boundaries clearly anymore!
Perhaps you folks will let me know what you see as the difference between the two , as you understand the terms. -
17 Replies
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That’s an interesting question Christina
I think once androgyny was a term that literally meant actual physiologically having some or all of the parts of both sexes. I think psychological androgyny is more recognised these days as someone who thinks on both sides of the gender fence.
Of my cross dressing friends i think there is such a vast scale as we all know between the guys who i know just like to get a frock on and get out and have fun (who might say they are not androgynous because outside dressing they are wholly happy with their male personality ) to those who are 1% to 99% female in their heads, as well as their wardrobes.
One of the things i like about our community is this diversity and acceptance of the range of levels (thats probably a bad word) of femme.
Is a cross dresser who just likes a big maxi and strappy shoes who identifies only as a heterosexual male androgynous. I don’t think so.
Once that 1% of your brain crosses the gender fence (my vocab in the response is appalling, sorry) then you have joined the androgynes
That begs the question if you think and identify 100% as a woman as you a psychological androgyne? I don’t think so, I think (biologics apart) thats a woman.
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Hi Christina,
My personal take on this is that a crossdresser while perhaps fully presenting as female is expressing a feminine side to their personality but ultimately identifies as male. As you are presenting andogenously almost all the time now that might indicate an actual shift in gender identification to ” I’m not a guy but I’m not a girl either” or “I’m both a girl and a guy”. Only a bit of deep introspection over time will tell you if that is the case.
I spent quite some time dressing andogenously and in my case it did indicate a gender shift. Again in my case the shift continued and I am now full time female. Others though are very happy just being andogenous.It’s just who they are. I found that it could be a bit dangerous. People seem to react better if you are totally female or totally male. Being neither or both seems to hurt their brains beyond their low levels of endurance and I copped the occasional abuse as a result.
Take care
Gwen -
Thank you Gwendoline and Sarah, they were well thought out answers. I guess that I am thinking in terms of the actual line one may cross and move from one definition into the other. Perhaps the concept of definition is at fault and I am happy to accept that noone is bound to follow anyone elses limitations as long as the consequences of bucking the trend are accepted as part of the game.
I am seeing more and more just how gendered the world is and how those who are IN the “square” don’t see the limits as clearly as those of us who are OUT of the “square” – like a fish swims and lives in a toxic environment to us.
A case in point is the positioning of a ponytail, worn low it is acceptable nowadays in public and will draw little attention, wear it high up on the crown and the gender message changes. A bobby pin is just a piece of bent wire but hold a fringe back with it and the gender line is crossed!.
Perhaps I just think too much and personally I know where I stand in this, I live at a place that brings me into little conflict with others and yet allows me to feel “genuine” to myself- getting older can do that. I am constantly surprised just how accepting most people are and all the fears I have lived with seem mostly baseless. I have decided this year to let Christina out more in the world but can no longer accept the concept of two” me’s” and the life I live on a farm in a small town does not allow me to wear the sort of clothes I would wear at home, the women in this town wear jeans, blouses and sensible shoes, I do the same but if I go to “town” I wear makeup , hair done and casual clothes.[most days]
I think that you are on the right track about it being a state of mind and less to do with what we put on. What do others think? -
Quote:That’s an interesting question Christina
I think once androgyny was a term that literally meant actual physiologically having some or all of the parts of both sexes. I think psychological androgyny is more recognised these days as someone who thinks on both sides of the gender fence.
SYour former is in fact Intersexed, like me, having both male and female anatomy and a very confused brain wash. Yes I’m very unique and rare.
The latter is still incorrect. Androgynies see themselves as neither male or female, preferencing neither gender, and some to some extent as both. Androgyne is often used in a pretty broad sense.
etymology wise of course androgyne means manwoman :p
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Whenever I hear the term androgynous it immediately reminds me of the early eighties with Boy George and Marolyn. Fascinatingly enough neither, to me, were CDs. They seemed to parody the rapidly becoming blurred difference between genders. They were tagged androgynous, but for what reason? We in Australia had Geoff Duff who dressed in stockings and leotards to get a reaction. Who could forget Joylene Frogmouth from Jimmy and the Boys? I suppose what I am trying to get at is androgony is another term bandied around by publicists who wish to make their particular star of the week something different from mainstream. To we cross dressers it means very little I’m afraid, I’m a CD and the further I go down my chosen path, then the more I discover my femininity. If it makes somebody happy to include me in a box marked androgynous, then their categorisation is noted. Excuse my comments, but I hate to be categorised by psychologists who love to switch paradigms like we change panties.
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I believe androgeny is just another phase on the path of discovery and understanding that we are all seeking.
When I was young and discovered “labels” for my then undefined “lifestyle”, I was happy to be categorised because it gave me a sense of belonging. Yes, I may have started out as a crossdresser, but over time I became androgenous and now I consider myself to be transgendered. Perhaps in the future I will be transsexual – who knows?
But as you say Christina, at what point do you cross the line from one stage to a new level? I guess it’s different for everyone, but I suspect it’s when you achieve a sense of “this feels right”. Perhaps you become accustomed to the level of gender expression you’ve achieved and that’s sufficient in the long term – that’s your gender shift!
However, for some people, the search for gender identity continues and they progress beyond what is “appropriate NOW” to the another stage of gender expression which may then become another permanent gender shift!
It’s an ongoing quest which dominates our lives!
Quote:A case in point is the positioning of a ponytail, worn low it is acceptable nowadays in public and will draw little attention, wear it high up on the crown and the gender message changes.Yes, it’s the subtle aspects that are the givaways suprisingly!
Quote:I found that it (dressing androgenously) could be a bit dangerous. People seem to react better if you are totally female or totally male.Good point Gwen – it does confuse people!
CLARE
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my understanding is that dressing in an androgynous way can be done in 2 ways 1.) wearing clothes that are totaly netural if wanting to “pass” like this then no gender traits would be visable
2.) wearing a mix of clothes that are clearly oppisites eg.skirt and mens top
if wanting to “pass” like thisthen they might have beard & Breasts this is sometimes called “genderfuck”.“passing” in these ways is realy only achieved by confusing people
some people who id as androgyne feel the need to present in either of these ways to combat there gender disphoria
where as cross dressing is dressing totaly as of the opposite sex to there body- a Tgirl might crossdress as a man for a funeral or wedding for the sake of the family ect.
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Aside from what androgyne means – I’ve never really understood why a TG or crossdresser or TV would want to dress truly androgynously. To me it’s Mao-ist or Star Trek sameness. Mind you the trekkie girls started off with little netball style uniforms. I suppose the jump suit style is androgynous?
The only photo I’ve seen of a so called androgyne looked distinctly cute and female – just like Twiggy.
Fiona xx
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Hi all
I realize this is an older discussion but interesting so here’s my 2 cents worth. My view androgynous was dressing in a way that was right on the social “limits” of what was expected of the gender you were presenting at the time I used to scour ebay and shops to find womans clothes I could wear from day to day without giving the game away eg bootcut jeans ladies military style boots no heel of course converse shoes girls thongs ect singlet and western tops cargo pants ect the list goes on I have always had long hair that I would place in a ponytail kinda not high or low, both ears pierced using small hoops I’d have my nails done in a natural or light pink finish, eyebrows shaped but not too much, and girls jewelry but again items that weren’t to feminine lip gloss and a very light bb creme.Lol reading this back to myself so you were dressed as a girl huh well yes and no it just made me feel better about myself knowing I was dressed head to toe as a woman would, and with Scylla still a secret it gave me comfort and sanity. Never once had any issues in fact used to get compliments all the time.
hugs Scylla -
Ok way I see it you wear a dress your a girl men’s jeans and a Tshirt a guy but start bending the rules ok lesbians do it they wear guys clothes usually smaller sizes fitted stuff and make it rock but they are still girls and wear makeup n they don’t want to be men some make mistakes lots of lesbians rock the punk look and short hair yet its still styled and they trust me I’m a lesbian want to look female yet I retain my long hair and I wear more dresses n stuff
If you want to see androgyne at its best check out “google” Shane from the L Word all I have to say is wow and hot she’s so hot anyways
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Quote:Ok way I see it you wear a dress your a girl men’s jeans and a Tshirt a guy but start bending the rules ok lesbians do it they wear guys clothes usually smaller sizes fitted stuff and make it rock but they are still girls and wear makeup n they don’t want to be men
I know it is your opinion Chelsea, but I disagree with the above statement, it is not the clothes that determines the gender or sexuality.
I know quite a few, straight natal women who wear mens jeans and t-shirts, they don’t always wear makeup, and some do have short cropped hair, but they don’t see them selves as guys, lesbians or cross-dressers, they dress this way because they feel comfortable.
There are also men that wear, something that could, by some people/ certain groups in society, be seen as a dress, that don’t see themselves as women or gay, they may even wear makeup and jewelry
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Well yes Emo’s and Gothic people wear makeup but a man doesn’t wear a floral dress and say I’m a man women can do what ever they want its different Madonna stated “women can wear jeans and a Tshirt cause its ok to be a man but for a man to dress as a women”
What I’m saying its more excepted for women to dress in guys clothes then for men to dress in women clothes
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I am newly back after a break and saw this old thread, I had forgotten about it. I am still of this opinion as I personally believe that FOR ME , it is a closer fit of how I feel. I also know that I can never pass as a woman and am not so committed to the result that I am happy to squander any of the little money I own to have the extensive FFS and body surgery that I would need to pass as a woman. I am also amazed at the almost total consumption of peoples waking hours that “passing” can involve, tucking, voice training, fear of being clocked etc . This is not for me so Androgyny is a less exacting state to BE in and allows me a more relaxed and hassle free life I believe.
As I have stated previously, I believe that ” woman” is a social construct and not an innate state of being ( as compared to female) and so one can become a woman by meeting the “social standards ” that denote a “woman “.
We need in fact to set our own standard of what we think a woman is and need not kowtow to what others think. Of course this may cause friction with those around us but I guess it all depends on how much it matters to you? -
Androgynous is an interesting concept. As your original post suggested as an individual it’s hard to escape from whatever you do and see as androgynous. I generally dress in womens casual sports cloths I see as androgynous but I realized the other day it’s further across than I thought. The point was made when a trans friend thought I would actually go out like that. Still I guess I forget where I am in this.
I strangely wrote an article about passing just today with similar theme’s , spooky lol. -
Kristyana, I too wear many items of women’s clothes out in the community but also may wear a shirt over a camisole for example or have painted nails, makeup etc and jeans and a T shirt. As I stated, for me it is more comfortable and more true to myself to mix things up a bit to achieve a look I want and is not so likely to bring me unwanted attention in a small community though I am becoming more obvious by the day. I am discovering more each day though that most people don’t give a damn what I wear!
