Are we there Yet ?

[Adrian]

Caroline asks “Are we nearly there?”

I’m tempted to reply “does it really matter if we are there?”.

I still vividly recall my first visit to a cafe in 1996, two years after Priscilla was released, and am sure we weren’t “there” then. One of the “older” girls whispered to me “Put on a bit more lipy and you will be fine” – my advice today would perhaps be “Smile – they aren’t (all) out to get you”. Over 20 years later I’m still going out, still alive, and still enjoying life.

Are we there with car driving? How many people say “Sorry I can’t go shopping today – driving the car is too risky”?
But more people get killed on the roads than wandering round Westfield in a dress.
Like cutting the road toll to zero, getting total LBGTI acceptance is an objective that no one realistically expects to achieve. It just gives us a direction to head in.

Caroline observes

Quote:

TGR appears heavily populated with those wishing to come out but apparently “cant”

I’m not sure how true this is (perhaps it is time for another survey!).
Back in 2011 only 13% of TgR was completely in the closet. I think rather that those who are living in fear of children/wife/society need to post frequently to justify their position against increasing evidence that society has moved on (even if it isn’t there yet). I suspect the noise isn’t representative of actual numbers.

Finally Caroline asks

Quote:

“what do we need to do to make it easier for people who are closeted to come out and enjoy themselves”.

In the past we all needed a lot of support and encouragement with safe venues and outings to make our first steps. Back then society in general didn’t know what to make of (in the imortal words of Bernadette) “a cock in a frock”. But if the context is contemporary life in Australia I’m tempted to say “nothing”.

So if your game plan is to stay in the cupboard till the all clear is sounded and we are”there” – then pack a good lunch.

[Anonymous]

think rather that those who are living in fear of children/wife/society need to post frequently to justify their position against increasing evidence that society has moved on (even if it isn’t there yet). I suspect the noise isn’t representative of actual numbers.

A most insensitive remark Adrian, one which I feel you need to apologise for to people like me asap.

“Society out there” maybe willing to accept people like me, but at home with my beloved partner, she certainly aint. And the “no answer at all to my texts” whilst I was at TF this year, is ample proof of this.

There’s also another good TGR member who “got sprung bad” a few months back and was threatened with all sorts of retribution by her “beloved” if she continued to cross dress.

In summary, it’s great that the world is changing in terms of acceptance of the “gender diverse”, but if that’s not happening within the bounds of any individual relationship, short of “getting out” there’s sweet nothing can be done to change that.

I’ve already “got out” once and I aint doing that again..1/. too painful 2/. too expensive and 3/. far too stressful. Not to mention the minor detail that with my current partner, we are still very much in love, so why risk all of that just to be “mainstream” with current society??

More power to your bra straps to those who do have a loving accepting partner, but please spare a thought for those who are not in this happy situation.

VERY sincerely

Caty

[Adrian]

A most insensitive remark Adrian, one which I feel you need to apologise for to people like me asap.

Sadly Cathy I think your post proves my point. Or at the least, does nothing to challenge the observations I made.

A very few people on TgR post a lot about what they can’t do – in predominately negative posts; whilst the rest of us get on with life and chip away at the road blocks at our own pace.

I see no reason to apologise for stating what is so obviously the case.

How about we address the original post which was positive, in a positive way?

Quote:

what do we need to do to continue breaking down acceptance barriers and in doing so make it easier for people who are closeted to “come out” and enjoy themselves.?

[Deleted User]

Just wondering if there are more variables to be considered within the “are we there yet” proposition?
Adrian, as I understand, is simply encouraging more of us to be more actively, and publicly, expressing our feminine identity. Caty, as I understand, is suggesting we do what is more practical.
Some people who are ‘discovered’ even in ‘modern’ Australia, suffer in many ways.
Also, some of us experience our fem side variably. There are times when our femme identity is less significant and in different contexts. Gender fluidity has many aspects.
Adrian’s encouragement to go out is to be appreciated.
Caty’s reservations are to be respected I believe. Not every partner is accepting, not every person even wants to leave their own zone, and sometimes fear of exposure can be stronger than any assessment of benefit.
Identity, context, and opportunity are complex parts of everyday reality.
Just some random thoughts on this. Wishing all well.
Myra

[Adrian]

Mira,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Caroline’s post.

Myracd wrote:

Adrian, as I understand, is simply encouraging more of us to be more actively, and publicly, expressing our feminine identity.

I don’t want to hog this discussion…but no, I have never believed in blindly encouraging people to be active or publicly visible. What was good for me is almost certainly not good for someone else. So that isn’t what I said in my post (read again what I wrote).

I did however comment on negativity and a distorted perception of risk. I don’t believe that we have to wait till we are “there” before it is safe to embrace our gender.

[Anonymous]

Every one of us is different, we all have different perceptions of what our feminine selves should be, we have different aims and goals as part of our feminine desires and we all have different environments that shape and mould ourselves as we move between our male and female personas. In my case I feel that there is value in both sentiments expressed by Adrian and there is also a very clear warning to us girls as Caty asserts that while society is moving slowly towards acceptance there is still many people including those that are closest to us that are not accepting of who we are.

Case in point is my experiences. After many years of secretly cross dressing I slowly moved forward practising my dressing, make up and feminine skills over several years building up a wardrobe, trying different looks and clothes and finally slowly setting a foot outside the door and into the world. This was followed by another step out each one progressing a little further into the world with each trip. It was finally followed by a full blooded outing to DT’s here in Victoria for a night out making friends and meeting people hitherto only met through the internet. A very satisfying and validating experience, followed by a daytime shopping trip again met with acceptance whether I was read or not. Nobody seemed to care, no sniggers, no pointing or laughing came my way. I was happy and thrilled about what I felt was an achievement in fulfilling my dreams to be out in society as a female and accepted as that. In this part of the story I can see and agree with Adrian and many other girls that advocate pushing forward with your dreams and not allowing the fear of something that is only perceived in your mind to stand in your way.
However
There is a cautionary part to this tale as well. Because while society does accept me as Glenda, even if it is slowly being dragged in to the 21st century my partner did not.
So while I was feeling so happy for myself the world came crashing down and I found out that there is a price to pay for who we are, and that price may be to steep for some to pay.
In my case as I am sure the case is with Caty the loss of my family, the potential for embarrassment and discrimination or recriminations from people that I value along with the potential financial devastation and loss of children that comes with a separation or divorce is a price to high to pay.
I cannot stop being Glenda, I have tried in the past and now after many years accept who I am and the fact that Glenda is a large part of me.
If you are able and either don’t have a family that would frown on what we do or you have a supportive environment then I would say Girls get out there and enjoy being you, but if not and there is more risk than reward bide your time, take what Girl time you can, be careful and secretive and enjoy yourself that way. Like everything in this world there is a price to pay for what we do or want. While the politically correct at the moment are running the show we are making leaps and bounds forward but when the situation is moved from a community issue to a personal one, there are still many values that are ingrained in people that are not so forgiving. I know some of you may talk about living a lie and being dishonest with my partner and suggestions about talking to her and the like will no doubt be thrown up. But after being caught out and the attitudes and threats that followed I know there is no way forward with me as Glenda in our lives together, so being caught in between a rock and a hard place it seems to me the best way forward for Glenda and for my other life is to have a part of it remain in the shadows of the Rock
I hope this makes sense, and I hope it doesn’t discourage those that would advance themselves but I would only offer this as advice don’t run blindly toward the light because it may be a big truck bearing down on you
Love as always
Glenda

[Emma_Thorne]

The thing that always amazes me whenever we have a conversation along the lines of “Are we there yet?” is how quickly we can drive the thread from a discussion of us as a little niche community of supposedly like-minded folk to a person’s adverse personal experience. Even the USS Enterprise cannot achieve the warp speed to which this occurs.

Everyone’s world is different. Some have more opportunity or courage than others but different they are nonetheless. I get that. I will admit to the same level of frustration as Adrian experiences when these chats plunge into the tales of ladies who don’t enjoy the same level of freedom as we do but please bear in mind dear sisters that we, and others like us, have had a zillion private conversations with girls on the subject of getting the balls to be yourselves over many, many, years and the same old excuses do wear you down. I suspect sometimes…no, I know in most cases….that the girls we have these chats with think that they are THE only ones that have had these sad experiences but they’re not. There is not an excuse I have not heard ad infinitum but one thing I do know for sure is this: once a CD, always a CD. It lurks within you like Henry Hyde’s Dr Jekyll…only with eyeshadow and fake boobs which is a lot more interesting of course.

I am not fussed at all as to what anyone’s personal circumstances are. They have no affect on me and my decisions, or behavior, in any way . I am only attempting, in my small way, to be a bit of a pathfinder to those who want to do more but aren’t really sure how to go about it in a general sense. By writing of my experiences maybe, just maybe, the odd chick here and there might have a go themselves and see what is out there. I know also that there will always be a group amongst us that, for whatever reason, will always have reasons not to something, or even anything, but so be it. I DO care about my personal friendships within our community and always will. It is my personal friendships that have always given me the most joy from this lifestyle, amazingly even more than a new hot leopard print skirt even(!), and I value them .
Now that I’ve had my say I shall say some more:

“Are we there yet?” We are there as much as vegetarians , pentacostal religions, the newer version of Spicks & Specks, good Muslims, smashed avocado breakfasts, and Uber services are. E.G no one really takes much notice and if they do we are a bit of a novelty. Nothing wrong with that.

“Personal reproaches from anyone about what I do”. I don’t care.

“Am I passable enough?” I don’t care. I DO care that I look hot on the dance floor at the Lotus Lounge on a Saturday night and so should you if you’re dancing with me…just don’t look as good as I do

“Cock in a frock”. I LOVE that descriptor and use it all the time. I have great looking frocks btw.

“Caty”. A new friend. Chill out hun…if an online life is what it is for you then that’s what it is. At least you can say you once had a weekend away….

“Adrian”. A BFF. What a chick Next time I see her I’m going to pash her right on the lips xx

That’s probably enough from me.

………………oh I forgot one other thing:
“Transgender Rights”. I couldn’t give a stuff about them.

[Emma_Thorne]

………………oh I forgot one other thing:

“Transgender Rights”. I couldn’t give a stuff about them.

[Deleted User]

I think it was Virginia Prince who said, I could be wrong.
She was asked why, in her guidelines for the wives of transvestites,* she always put such a positive spin. She said that wives already had a list of negatives, she didn’t need to repeat them, she wanted to help by focusing on the positives.
I imagine that most, probably all, members of TGR could relate experiences that were traumatic. Support, counselling and advice on these experiences is indeed necessary and I think, to a degree, it is attained here. But continual, persistent negativity just feeds itself.

*’Transvestites’ This was in the 50’s/60’s. Before the words Transvestism, and later crossdressing, were created, eventually deemed to be politically incorrect by some.

[Deleted User]

Well there does seem to be some tough love in this forum. Anyone want a bit of sympathy to go with it? Happy to take it offline and have a chat. I don’t mind if you are self pitying a bit, and I am speaking as someone who has had the courage to come out to a partner and is negotiating the stormy seas that have resulted. I have no regrets about doing it, by the way.

Interesting to see a condemnation of the personalisation of others’ circumstances within the discussion and yet nearly all posts contain a personal reflection including that specific post. How else do we relate to each other? That’s not to say those reflections are wrong by the way. They will be true for each individual and therefore worthy of consideration.

By the way, I care about about transgender rights. People have been victimised, beaten up and even murdered for it.

Love to all, Tina ❤️

[Adrian]

It is perhaps time for a not so subtle reminder of what this thread was about!
Replies that address the topic are, as always, particularly welcome!!

Caroline wrote:

….It made me ponder firstly , how far has Australian society advanced and secondly how far the “ T component of the LGBTQI community have advanced in their respective attitudes and acceptances since the release of the Movie all those years ago ?.

How far have we advanced as a society ie ” Are we there yet!!” and as a minority group in understanding and acceptance ? Then, more importantly, what do we need to do to continue breaking down acceptance barriers and in doing so make it easier for people who are closeted to “come out” and enjoy themselves. The answer to this I think lies in ourselves !!! ie continuing to present ourselves frequently and confidently in public and not worrying about the “TG friendly” tag that many seem to seek as a condition.
…………..

[Deleted User]

Yep, fair call, Adrian. That’s why I offered to take my offer of a shoulder to cry on offline. Not entirely irrelevant though, people’s experiences are all an expression of how far ‘we’ are. And I certainly think that a concern for transgender rights is extremely germane.

Even if we think we are ‘there’ we can quickly regress, witness the US elections. No time for complacency.

Agree this discussion should really revert to the core subject, though.

[Deleted User]

It is always interesting to read the responses that appear after making a Post in Forums.
Thank you all for your observations and comments.

The question “ Are we there yet ? ” probably demands a YES or NO response but I think that’s too difficult in relation to the context of the topic so it perhaps can only ever draw responses dependent on the perspective of the reader.

From my view I think as “a Group” we ARE, definitely a long way along the road towards wider acceptance and I have “ bags full” of subjective evidence over the years to support that.
Some asked Do we care ? .. Well yes I do in the hope it makes life a bit easier, even eventually, for others. I do have some sympathy for those who believe their relationships can’t handle the presence of what we may refer to as a “third person” and they are forced to deal in various ways with the equation Exposure = Tragedy . However I find it hard to accept the view that this “forces them to a “solitary life “dressing at Home.
Some of us though, are very lucky to have compassionate partners BUT I must say from experience , we have worked HARD at it!!! Nevertheless, It is probably impossible to transpose that success to other relationships other than to continue enjoying life out amongst the public and hope that one day the partner of one of our closeted group sees a TG person in public and begins to wonder perhaps I should after all, let my own partner fulfil their desires.

When or If that happens I think we can say that we are indeed along way on the road and maybe a” YES” answer to the original question is looming?

Caroline

[Anonymous]

Thank you Caroline for the most reasoned and compassionate response to the question you originally posed yourself.

As one of the “closeted”, let me assure you that a “TF formal room full of us” would not change my beloved’s attitude to the subject one bit . My only reason for this is that, we are of the “conservative older generation”, where views that were formed eons ago are hard to shift. In my case, this is reinforced by my beloved’s former employment in mental health admin where I am sure she would have seen gender related files with a lot “worse” history than having a partner who likes to wear a dress. So you do have to ask why she cannot accept Caty in her presence? .

“Dressing in private” for me out here in the sticks is also a necessity to protect my beloved from the “gossip mill” and since we recently signed up to go to a retirement village in circa two years, only the good Lord knows what will happen there!

Thanks again

Caty

[Michelle_Alan]

Are we there yet? I’ve been giving this some thought lately and particularly this morning travelling into the city to have brunch with a friend at Circular Quay opposite where we worked together before I retired. Then I wore a suit and tie, today a dress and heels (though more sensible shoes than I used to be able to wear, old knees sigh). This degree of comfort has taken a long time though and much experimentation and false starts. Why did I buy that apple green dress? There was a reason it was on special at DJs . Then looking like a gigantic granny smith scurrying around Double Bay. Or discovering those heels don’t necessarily go with shiny floors and coming crashing down while trying to blend into the midday shopping crowd. At least no longer looking like a fruit. Shame about the wig coming off and it was a rather loud thump. I digress though as they say and to get to today’s position it wouldn’t of happened without the environment I move in progressing as well.

This is something that everyone I think has touched on in response to Caroline’s original post.Collectively are we there yet? The answer is yes in comparison to other minorities in Australia. There are those that love us, those that hate us, those that fear us and thankfully a majority that couldn’t care less. It’s possible to move within society as we wish. We have access to information and resources undreamt of when I first tried my mother’s pantyhose on fifty years ago and wondered why. Depending on your risk profile you can move as you wish and present as you wish.

This is the other part of the “Are we there yet”question and that is at the personal level. For me, the answer is no. I want and need to go further on my journey, but relationships and the possible cost hold me back. For others this is not an issue and for some any form of cross gender presentation or progression is a dream.
So in a less verbose way, what am I trying to say? Are we there yet? As a society yes, though further progress is possible. As individuals, yes, no and maybe, but that is up to us to move as we see fit and accommodate what we see as both our desires and circumstances.
On a lighter note it was a lovely catch up, but a tad cold on the knees. Ahh but it was worth it!