do we want science to tell us who we are

[Adrian]

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We answer our “problem”with acceptance of who we really are not scientific definition.

Totally agree.

The trouble with “scientific discoveries” is that people take them as being black and white, true and false. But most medical research is based on probability and sample sizes. It isn’t an exact science.

So I imagine we could find people latching onto some poorly executed research and labeling gender diverse people as having some defect or abnormality.

What if the theory yields a test that would show if you were gender diverse?
How would you feel if you “failed” the test – but inside you knew you were gender diverse.
It would be you vs the scientific community.

The fact that the research could be flawed, or doesn’t apply to everyone wouldn’t worry the average punter – who likes and seeks simplicity in their life.

Well, few of us who are gender diverse could describe our life as simple.
And the last thing we want is people trying to simplify it in ways that could divide us, could make some people feel inferior to others, open the prospect of a “treatment”….

Now I need to think how I could stop the “do-gooders” carrying out the research I don’t want!

[Anonymous]

While I am a great believer in the scientific principles of research and think it still has value if only for prenatal prevention of damage to the unborn, it is true that small unsupported research tends only to create further problems. If it is in the wrong hands manipulated studies have the potential to drag us backwards many years. And in the end if I have digested and accepted who I am why should that not be respected.

I see no possibility that research would or should stop but ethically it must concider the ramifications on the people it is looking at. That my dear friends leads me back where I always end up lol , our community and our voice .

[Anonymous]

When I read the article on the research being conducted into transgendered gene identification, the one thing that jumped out at me was that I am really different to non transgendered people. It made me feel unique and certainly did not indicate to me that there was any hope of a cure.

I am a believer in some other fringe theories, mostly about the origins of our civilisation, so the fact that some or all of us has a gene that is vastly different to non TG people has made me wonder if there is a link to another time and place.

I might add I am not a crackpot but I have been very interested in a series of TV Documentaries called Ancient Aliens. Just thought I had better clarify where the fringe theories come from, not because I wanted to drift off topic.

So I guess the thought of being Genetically different has made me feel more special than I did before.

[Anonymous]

As much as we see that we do not need to be fixed, such announcements can lead to those who know “better” thinking that we would be better off “fixed” and would not be able to show our appreciation until after the “fix” was applied.

Such thinking reminds me of the missionaries bringing God and religion to the ignorant heathens who needed to be saved in spite of the fact that they lived healthy, happy lives without such indoctrination.

No thanks………. I will continue to be happy in my ignorance.

[Calliope_101]

well you are genetically different, we are each unique

just remember life is forever changing thanks to mutations occurring in the gene pool, if they found a tg gene, and attempted to fix it would that stop humans evolving into the homo superior as I think David Bowie once sang in “Oh You Pretty Things”

(written with a pinch of tongue in cheek)

not that I am saying we are superior, but isn’t it nice to be able to have some personal understanding to both the female and male psyche

[Anonymous]

I’m sorry but I don’t see this research as someone trying to fix us, I tend to look at it more as science trying to understand us. Perhaps when they do they will help society understand and accept us as well.

[Anonymous]

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The trouble with “scientific discoveries” is that people take them as being black and white, true and false.

People tend to think in polar opposites anyway…binary gender?

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But most medical research is based on probability and sample sizes. It isn’t an exact science.

I’m not suggesting I’m right but the only exact science I can think of is mathematics – until it’s proven wrong of course.

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So I imagine we could find people latching onto some poorly executed research and labeling gender diverse people as having some defect or abnormality.

Don’t they already?

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What if the theory yields a test that would show if you were gender diverse?
How would you feel if you “failed” the test – but inside you knew you were gender diverse.
It would be you vs the scientific community.

How is that any different to now, on all points?

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The fact that the research could be flawed, or doesn’t apply to everyone wouldn’t worry the average punter – who likes and seeks simplicity in their life.

Currently we have the inexact sciences of psychology/psychiatry offering the theories – no different really.

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Well, few of us who are gender diverse could describe our life as simple.
And the last thing we want is people trying to simplify it in ways that could divide us, could make some people feel inferior to others, open the prospect of a “treatment”….

What you describe is the way things are anyway.

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Now I need to think how I could stop the “do-gooders” carrying out the research I don’t want!

On the one hand we want people to better understand us but on the other you want them to leave you alone. I have a lot of difficulty with that idea.

It’s a bit like asking people to have their say & then dismissing it. We can’t really have it both ways.

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No thanks………. I will continue to be happy in my ignorance.

Unfortunately, we keep hearing that many are not happy in their ignorance.

‘Ignorance is bliss’
I think?
I think!
I guess I’ll never know.

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It made me feel unique

I agree but would add that we are all (unique) individuals (whether we like it or not). Just ask Brian. (Pythonesque humour).

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And in the end if I have digested and accepted who I am why should that not be respected.

Totally agree but I thought the concensus was that many are yet to achieve that.

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Sorry if this offends but without self acceptance you depress till you die.

I guess we are on the same page after all.

[JaneS]

It has been some time since I responded to a forum post. Essentially that has been by choice. I hope I’m not out of line (though I admit I am likely to be long-winded) by replying to this thread to address a couple of issues in this and other threads. Those who know me know well that I am rarely adverse to stating my point but perhaps, as I’ve aged and slipped into retirement (okay, maybe ‘nudged’ is a better word), I’ve come to re-evaluate what is really important in my life.

Can “science” come up with a reason why I am like I am? Is it genetic or cultural? Is it possible that different scientists might have different views on the subject anyway (think climate change)? Is there a ‘cure’? Can I be ‘cured’? Do I even want to be ‘cured’?

Like many, if not most, of us I have struggled with ‘who’ I am. The first victory in my struggle was moving from a thought process of asking ‘what’ I am to acknowledging to myself that there is no what but rather a valid sentient human being asking a question. Thus, I sought to understand who I am. I thought I’d reached a degree of understanding, as painful as it was, when I sought to end my life because of the answer I came up with. It was only my consideration for others, or more correctly the impact my death would have on others I would never wish to hurt, that dragged me back from that place.

My subsequent ruminations took me to the point that something had to change. That change was finally coming out to my wife as a CD.

I ‘get’ Chloe’s reference to Pythonesque humour – we are indeed all individuals, even when we seemingly speak with one voice. My experiences in many ways are no different to others who’ve fought the tide of self-hate, disgust, depression and even self-harm, yet they are also very different because it’s about me; my circumstances, my environment and my life.

During my working career I fought many pointless battles, pointless either because they were unwinnable (for example, seeking more funding when there is simply none to be had) or when the outcome was actually not important. Though sometimes I felt better for the fight, having served the cause and “fought the good fight”, in the long run I finally realised that I need only fight for what is achievable (if only some politicians and military commanders thought the same) and for what is important to my life. I know that might sound like a cowardly cop out but it doesn’t need to be. If those things are of benefit to others then I can be part of a movement, a ’cause’, but ’causes’ rarely help me day-to-day, they rarely support my individual issues and, more importantly, they rarely house, feed and clothe me if that is required. Thus, my final accounting must be to myself first – without that ‘self’ I risk leaving a loving and supporting partner stranded to deal with the aftermath of my actions and friends and family trying to understand things I’ve never been able to understand myself.

I think that perhaps, though they may be filled with empathy for a movement that might allow them the social freedom to feel better about themselves, many of the people in our ‘community’ are also looking after ‘me’. Having 24 hours a day available to champion trans rights is no victory if that availability came from being dismissed from work for espousing one’s views. Being “out and proud” is a hollow victory if one is subsequently isolated, ostracised or alone for being so. We may make that choice and perhaps should be applauded for it but we should not be criticised if we choose otherwise.

Accept my offer of assistance if I make it, include me in your endeavours when my involvement is key but do not judge me because my response is not the one you wanted. You do not wear my shoes.

[JaneS]

Heavens, what a disjointed ramble.

Next time around I’ll get my thoughts together beforehand as well as try to control their outpouring as I write.

[Anonymous]

I have cross posted this in two forums the other one was What is the message you want to tell society?

Moderator

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PLEASE DO NOT CROSS POST – it just creates duplicate threads and confusion. I’ve just wasted time replying to it in the other forum and now have to repost

I am not trying to start an argument here but I think it is important that we keep our emotional response to this question away from the job at hand.
That is not to say that we shouldn’t be passionate and persistent, but we should keep our heads clear about what the final outcome is that we want.

I have read a lot of disagreement with the use of the science in our quest to educate the Government and the public about Transgenderism. I have also read that most of our community don’t want to be recognised as having a psychological disorder, but unfortunately I feel that if you want to convince the public that we are not all psycho then don’t you think it may behove us to use the science to convince them.

Just a thought not trying to upset anyone just trying to keep the message clear of emotion.

[Adrian]

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I have read a lot of disagreement with the use of the science in our quest to educate the Government and the public about Transgenderism. I have also read that most of our community don’t want to be recognised as having a psychological disorder, but unfortunately I feel that if you want to convince the public that we are not all psycho then don’t you think it may behove us to use the science to convince them.

Just a thought not trying to upset anyone just trying to keep the message clear of emotion.

I understand the dilemma of convincing people you are normal when there isn’t a test to prove it. But I think the best argument that we are normal people is the absence of just such a test.

Do we seriously think there is going to be a medical test that identifies why our gender is not binary – when not being binary is just normal variation in the human species.

A quick read of the history of apartheid in South Africa will show the consequence of seeking a test for something that is normal…- when there was a “test” to determine if you were white or black – and all those in between got a very rough ride. (Well actually those who were tested as black got an even rougher ride)

Unless there is a miracle breakthrough – the science will probably struggle to demonstrate what makes it imperative that some people change their birth sex to avoid gender dysphoria (“transexual”), and perhaps what leads people to be born generally infertile with ambiguous physical sex (“intersex”).

For the rest of the gender diverse (a majority which I think includes me) the science will label us as a deviant normal people to be treated like all others that society considers deviant. I’ve had enough experience of being labelled a fetishist, or part-timer from sections of our own community – without giving society the weapon to label me the same way.

A scientific test would probably not even be welcomed by those who identify as transexual as it would probably result in a much narrower eligibility to surgery than is currently the case…of course I’m guessing a bit here.

I wrote earlier in this thread that I want to stop science looking for a reason why I am like I am. I don’t see myself as a guinea pig with a disease that I need science to cure. So I want to see a message to society that depathologises gender diversity – not one that switches it from a psychological disorder to a medical disorder!

[Anonymous]

I understand completely where you are coming from, but I still keep seeing comments saying that this science result is something proving we are defective in some way.

I’m sorry but I look at it the other way and see that if science keeps finding these different genes and proving that psychological reasons are not at fault for our situation, then maybe one day science will prove that there is no Binary at all but in fact merely a whole spectrum of genetic differences. Something we already know in our hearts to be true.

Being genetically different is not a disorder as far as I can see, just the opposite in fact. I know we are all different in my mind its just convincing everyone else that’s the hurdle we have to overcome.

I don’t want anyone poking around in my brain either I can tell you!!

[Anonymous]

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So I want to see a message to society that depathologises gender diversity – not one that switches it from a psychological disorder to a medical disorder!

I understand your concerns. I have a different view though.

As science begins to unravel the genetic codes, discoveries are beginning to be made as to (some) of the reasons why we are as we are. An example might be; a gene or genes that help to explain some peoples diposition to be heavier than others – this reseach exists.

I cannot claim to represent anyone elses understanding/views, but for me these new understandings just help me to marvel at the extreme variation amongst human beings in the face of such discoveries.

These new understandings usually show a ‘predisposition to’, rather than a ‘guarantee of’. I have never read a scientific paper that emphatically states that ‘X’ will be the outcome ‘without all other ducks being in a line’.
On the rare occassion that a reseacher is naive enough to make such a claim, the scientific community relentlessly attempts to disprove the theory (& discredit the research). There is a naturally occuring mechanism in place, it is our own desire to understand.
This is (generally) how & why scientifc reseach is undertaken.

I observe that as humans are shown the diversity that exists amongst us, as well as the fact that we do not actually have as much control over our lives as previously thought, that we tend to accept that diversity with less difficulty than previous generations who believed in definites without any evidence.

Whether a genetic explanation is arrived at or not, does not diminsh the fact that the ‘other ducks must also be cooperating’.

[Adrian]

At the end of the day I expect the views on this depend a lot on your “faith” in science.

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As science begins to unravel the genetic codes, discoveries are beginning to be made as to (some) of the reasons why we are as we are. An example might be; a gene or genes that help to explain some peoples diposition to be heavier than others – this reseach exists.

There is an important difference I see between the quest for a scientific explanation of gender diversity and, for instance, weight diversity. With weight you can weigh the patient, and you can look at their genes to find correlations.

With gender diversity there is nothing you can measure and be sure it is an analog of gender. Obviously you can recruit a cohort of post-operative transexuals assuming that everyone who goes on this journey is actually gender dysphoric (a debate for another time) – but that doesn’t give you scientific understanding of all gender diversity.

We had this discussion a few months back and I think there was agreement that gender is in the head and cannot be measured objectively. So any scientific research will be “wobbly” because it has to rely on some assessment of the subject’s diversity.

I can’t see Joe Blogs being moved much by “wobbly” research. But I acknowledge others may have faith/hope in this strategy that I lack.

[Anonymous]

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With gender diversity there is nothing you can measure and be sure it is an analog of gender.

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We had this discussion a few months back and I think there was agreement that gender is in the head and cannot be measured objectively

Good point & agreed.

The gender diverse themselves though, identify as such & claim to be a community of people with similar understandings & experiences. We therefore either stop identifying as like each other (& different to the majority) or I guess we’d better get organised & tell society what we already know.
The science will continue regardless.