Gender Spectrum and TG Scales

[Anonymous]

Amanda, you are spot on with your splitting off sex from gender but reading this , it occurred to me that the whole definition of ones’ gender is an existential issue and the process of defining where someone lies on any ” scale” is fraught with danger.
I see any definition of ones’ status as having only two possibilities, the first is that someone is assessed by someone outside of them, eg a psychologist , who can only give a subjective view based on their own biases , experience or methodological world view .
The second possibility is to self assess and this is dangerous in that one is using the very thing that one is assessing ( the mind) to assess itself and this process is by it’s very nature , flawed. One can believe oneself to be a zebra and be tattooed with stripes but it does not make it true!

It is the old problem of how do we know something. We can never be objective as we filter ” reality ” through the mind and we can only ever know very little of that vast process that is our being. There is no objectivity.

While I think that it is important and comforting to define oneself and to have an identity , a place to be on the “scale” of things , it can only ever be a kind of mind game. As long as everyone is playing the same game , it can work but as is obvious in the “umbrella ” debate, we are not all playing by the same rules.

The solution , as I see it , is a virtually unattainable one as it involves deep Zen like awareness ( I do not possess it but once got close , if I could have drunk just another half bottle , I would have been there !) of ones ” real nature ” and so we might as well struggle on the way we do. Once one can accept the “ISNESS” of life and stop questioning things , it all will become clear they say!

It is often easier to say what we are NOT but as long as humans seek black and white solutions to grey issues such as identity and being , we will struggle with things existential.

Too deep or just a ” mind fart”???? It doesn’t really matter which!

[Jan_Wilson]

Must have read the equivalent of a set of encyclopedia on this subject over the years trying to work this ‘thing’ out.

When I find someone who has transitioned on the net and details her experience I am fascinated with the wheres, whys and hows. Whether her transition is successful or not I need to learn all I can.

After sessions with a psychiatrist specialising in gender I have come to the conclusion that one must help oneself, no one can do it for you.

Amanda and Christina’s posts contain good points and add to my research and learning.

I believe there is another qualifier or reason why some of us transition. Please remember this is my own personal take and feel free to argue. Some of us just want to be women. We don’t have to, we don’t feel we are women trapped in a mans’ body, we are not effeminate when presenting as men, we have been successful in our male lives but we would prefer to be a woman.

I have read that one must never transition unless your life depends on it and there is absolutely no other alternative to ones survival but I have also learned of very happy women who in my opinion transitioned because they simply wanted to live their lives as women.

When I apply myself to such things as gender scales and the cogiati I find I do not test as overly female unless I am doing it from Jan’s aspect. She is a woman but he definitely is not.

A can of worms, Pandora’s Box or a Red Herring I do not know but it is what I have observed and how I feel.

This type of discussion is one reason I love meeting gender diverse people and listening and learning and reading posts such as Amanda’s and Christina’s.

I hope some members respond to this whether they agree or not.

[Adrian]

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I believe there is another qualifier or reason why some of us transition. Please remember this is my own personal take and feel free to argue. Some of us just want to be women. We don’t have to, we don’t feel we are women trapped in a mans’ body, we are not effeminate when presenting as men, we have been successful in our male lives but we would prefer to be a woman.

The need people feel to transition is I agree an interesting topic.
One of the “surprises” in the survey was to find that having SRS was not the unique domain of those who identify as FFFF. This I think demonstrated the value in asking people to rate their own gender identity.

I’m sure if we were able to run the same gender identity question on the general population we would find that there are many people who lead their life as a woman who would rate themselves as FFFM, and a few clearly see themselves as FFMM. So having a FFFF gender identity cannot be made a pre-requisite for being sexually a female. No more than we can insist on all those of male sex being MMMM.

I will argue here that if we and all society were more aware of the inter-gender identities of FFFM, FFMM, and FMMM, then we would be much equipped to make life-choices about our diversity. If we can break the association between sex and gender it will free up everyone’s thinking. And that too is a good reason for having some informal gender scale.

My experience from conversations on this topic, is that many people I meet who want to transition rate themselves as a FFFF (well actually they say “I am a woman inside”). But I find it disturbing that their decisions seem to be made apparently oblivious to the existence of choices other than FFFF and MMMM. It is this binary “all or nothing” viewpoint that I see as being at the root of many subsequent challenges they face.

In that context I think the advice that

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one must never transition unless your life depends on it

is a useful “warning shot across the bows”. But it is negative advice. It needs to be complemented by something more positive, an awareness and acceptance of gender as a spectrum, and diversity as something to be embraced.
I don’t think one can have this positive discussion about alternatives, unless one has some sort of gender scale to talk about. The decision on how you live out your gender in your life does depend on where on the spectrum you feel you belong.

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Some of us just want to be women. We don’t have to, we don’t feel we are women trapped in a mans’ body, we are not effeminate when presenting as men, we have been successful in our male lives but we would prefer to be a woman.

To me this sounds like a statement of sexual presentation over-riding inner gender preference. An attraction to be a woman on the sex axis, without an over-riding need to be in ones head particularly feminine on the gender axis. Sounds very dangerous to me.

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I hope some members respond to this whether they agree or not.

But as this topic is about gender scales and their value (or not) – can we please carry on any discussion about the validity of non FFFF gender identities transitioning in a different thread please.

[Jennett]

Amanda I feel your response to Adina was deep and meaningful, but way too deep for me.

My simple philosophy is no one is black or white (well unless you are black or white and want to be white or black. M Jackson springs to mind) and society in general is generally too fixated to stop and allow a persons Karma (?) to be free to be THEMSELVES.
We, males generally have a pre-conditioned pack hunter mentality, are constantly fixated on conforming and even putting down the very people we are jealous of.

Basically the band of ‘normal’ Male behaviour and being acceptable has narrowed in my view and even most of US would never venture to that Office function or party in a dress.
When in fact years ago many, many men were keen to whack on a frock for functions with NYE being the most popular.
But we do often see young males dressed at ‘dress up’ parties, sadly often with the obligatory safety boots, but that is a symbol of masculinity I guess.
It would be nice to see where these males are at in their head as one thing is certain, it is not a one off and the desire to look and feel good again will never go away. And thus they find themselves on the merry go round of fighting and accepting themselves and their fears of the unknown in themselves.
Yet in emails we are bravely ready to take on the world but we are safe here under Amanda’s umbrella.
Well unless we get the generally weird assumption that we must really be a Women inside and go on to have SRS and DEMAND acceptance. Well society thinks they understand this and it must be alright.
Whereas us Males can find acceptance, even if it is only privately, and enjoy the best of both worlds. And without the hassles of dressing to impress 24/7!
Yep I am actualy suggesting that we actually enjoy being a man and enjoy it. And many (real) Gals can actually relate to ane njoy your honesty too.
For all the effort I have myself put in to help others I can’t say I have made any difference as 98% of the world still think Men wearing frocks and enjoying the fact that they can look good is still an oddity totally misunderstood.
Bring on Katoomba!!!
Jennett

Moderator

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I’m trying to relate this to the topic of gender spectrum and scales. You seem to be saying that you view gender as either female (SRS/Transition) or male (put on a dress in boots). But I can’t comment on this simplistic model unless I’m sure that that is what you are saying. Suffice it so say that the TgR survey provides no real support for binary gender models in TgR. Maybe another interesting discussion to be had in Katoomba! Amanda

[Lisa_W]

I have been thinking about the two first posts all day & therefore I will address those. I am unable to think of too much at once – hence I must be a male.
What you two ladies seem to have forgotten is the new reasearch which shows that Transexualism & GID seems to be a genetic disorder or at least mediated by changes in the hormonal milieu we encounter while in utero.

The GIRES – UK website has some very interesting articles which I suggest that we all should read.

So what I think is; that it does not matter what we think; we are programmed to think that way from the beginning. To argue otherwise is pure Sophistry.

If we are pre-programmed to think in a particular way does it really matter what scale is used to assess how far we are along a certain pathway?

In a recent Australian court case the judge summed up; that gender is determined by what is in the brain not what is between the legs.

In my opinion if I think that I am a woman – then I am a woman. Full stop – no further discussion needs to be entered into. That maybee too black & white for some people for such a grey area, but that is how I feel.

Lisa

[Adrian]

Lisa,
thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do appreciate the opportunity to test the frameworks I find work for me against a wider audience.

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What you two ladies seem to have forgotten is the new reasearch which shows that Transexualism & GID seems to be a genetic disorder or at least mediated by changes in the hormonal milieu we encounter while in utero.

I’m not sure I like to be called a lady – because my gender isn’t binary – but that’s another thread!
And the whole nature or nurture argument is a valid one to discuss but I don’t see how it affects a discussion of an individual’s gender at a moment in time.

But we seem to agree that gender is what is in your head and not what is between your legs.

Regardless of the primary cause (which I suspect is still the topic of argument/discussion) then we can either accept that gender is a binary male/female state which is pretty readily assessed without scales in the same way as we can examine genitalia to determine physical sex, or it is a spectrum with a large number of possible states.

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So what I think is; that it does not matter what we think; we are programmed to think that way from the beginning. To argue otherwise is pure Sophistry.

I disagree – I think it does matter what we think if we are going to talk about modifying our bodies to match our inner gender and possibly impacting other peoples lives in the process.
And I am concerned that you think I am engaging in plausible but fallacious argument. I think we have to be free to discuss every aspect of our experience if our knowledge and understanding is to grow.

I will ignore the warning and continue to argue the point.

Let us assume for a moment that it is true that we are pre-programmed to think in a particular way. The question is, is there in any value in a scale to assess gender?

Well if gender is binary – no scale is needed.
But if gender is binary then I’m happy to submit myself (and I suspect many other TgR members) to an examination to prove that we are not totally male or totally female in our heads.

So perhaps it would also be Sophistry to deny the existence of a gender spectrum. And if there is a spectrum, how can we make appropriate decisions about the medical, legal, and social frameworks we use unless we in some way understand where on a scale from male to female gender someone actually sits.

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In my opinion if I think that I am a woman – then I am a woman. Full stop – no further discussion needs to be entered into. That maybee too black & white for some people for such a grey area, but that is how I feel.

I don’t find it offensive that someone knows in their head they are FFFF. But I would hope that those who are lucky enough to view their gender in such an easy way can accommodate the much larger percentage of the gender diverse spectrum who are in the grey area.
As someone who has grown up in the grey, personally I know I need to discuss gender and try and find a “scale” that works in my life.

[Lisa_W]

Amanda, I agree that this is a very important topic & should be fully discussed.

Unfortunately you have misinterpreted my argument. I repudiate the binary theory. There are too many variations in gene expression to be accommodated by such a restrictive theory. Let alone accounting for the effects of variations of hormonal concentrations on the developing brain at critical times in uterine life. The genetic cause if GID is not proven, but that is the direction of current scientific thought & appears to be backed up by hard data.

If our thoughts, & gender identity is among them, is determined by the hard wiring of our brain then are we able to change them? History is littered with many examples of intersex people who have been asigned a particular sex purely on the appearance of their external genitalia. One boy was even asigned a female role simply because his cricumcision was botched & his penis was fried! This determination is often reinforced by hormonal treatment. Despite this determination the child’s true thoughts about gender identification – in line with their genetic expression – eventually emerges.

If it is accepted that there is a gender spectrum, which we both seem to agree upon but from different view points, why do we need a scale? You suggest that we need an appropriate scale to assess where someone “actually sits” so that appropriate medical,legal & social decisions can be made. Why? Unfortunately the use of such a scale will inevitably lead to the use of labels – which I have heard you rail against in the past.

Why can’t I be accepted as female, you androgenous & the next GID person be accepted as whoever/whatever they think that they are without the use of scales? What is the benefit if scales, except to stratify people?

Lisa

[Anonymous]

I find this discussion topic quite contradictory!

People who deny the established Binary Gender classification.

People who ‘create’ alternative Gender spectrums.

People who just accept who they are – Gender indifferent.

People who prefer to identify with a ‘Gender’ as it gives them ‘certainty’.

People establish their own Gender preference – why complicate things?

Clare.
Afterthought – is ‘Gender’ itself a word that is ‘biased’ in this discussion?

[Adrian]

More good feedback – thank you!

Christina

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I’m not interested in scales. It’s just another way to pathologise what is ‘natural.

There are many spectra in human form that are measured. The argument that we shouldn’t measure something otherwise it will be represented as a disease is interesting but but hardly heretical.

It might hold up for weight and waist size – which is used to pathologise obesity. But do people stop measuring their weight because of this? No.

It might hold up for age which is used to determnine when people should be scrapped from the workforce. But do we stop measuring our age? No.

And so the list goes on… blood pressure, shoe size, eye sight….
Granted these are all physical attributes that can be accurately measured.
But hopefully we can agree that gender is something in your head – something that can’t accurately be measured. So even if there is a “scale” you can only be placed on the scale, as Christina observed, by self assessment. This doesn’t seem a big threat to me…its like being told that your weight is whatever you want to tell me it is!

Moving forward
Perhaps it would help if try and rationalise why I see the need for some crude measure to understand gender diversity.

1. Putting myself on the map
Acknowledgement that “gender is a spectrum” from the community who were born male is pretty scant. I still get lots of “surprised” looks when I tell people.
On the other side of the fence the “Tom Boy” girl has been acknowledged for a long while, and the gender queers and butch gender types have a place in public awareness. On our side, years of entrenched slagging-off and bickering between the “transitioning/transexual” gender type and “crossdressing” gender types has drawn a battle line that goes right through the inter gender space. People retreat for safety into the “I’m a man” and “I’m a woman” gender spaces – it may feel comfortable for them, but it isn’t the right solution for anyone who honestly knows they are in between. And no Lisa, it isn’t a solution just to give the label androgynous to anyone in the middle – apart from the images it conjures up in the public of a green headed man with 5 arms – it does not acknowledge that many in this space are very close to being essentially male or essential female – that’s a lot of different gender types being bundled into one, rather depressing label.

2. Providing appropriate advice and support
The current support models seem to, by and large, reflect the established battleground of the gender types. The only pathways I am aware of are there to determine/confirm/convince people to transition, or to frighten them off back into the closet. I am not aware of anywhere I could go personally to receive appropriate professional advice or support (other than here on TgR). For as long as the system is dominated by a thought process binning people as “transexual” or “crossdresser”, then the situation is not going to improve. The consequence is that many people are either going to take inappropriate decisions in their life, or they are going to miss out on the joy of expressing their true gender identity. Given the size of this neglected part of the spectrum (I’m suspicious that it is by far the largest component) we have to increase awareness. One way to do that is to stand up and be counted – to have some sort of “scale” that allows us to associate clearly with not being essentially male or female.

As a followup I think there are also issues that need to be addressed in the FFFF gender space. The assumption that everyone who is FFFF is on the train to transition is not remotely justified by our recent survey results. I think they too are suffering from a lack of visibility – probably a fallout of the heavy publicity generated on SRS “transition stories”. With the recent changes to acknowledge that gender is not determined by physical genitalia – then maybe the non-SRS FFFF will attract more appropriate attention and support. But once again I think you have to be visible to create the necessary awareness in society.

3. Building an integrated community
If someone sees their gender as being male with some female aspects and wants to transition, what might be the best form of advice they could receive? In the crude “scale” I use they see themselves as FMMM – but there are also FMMM gender types born female. How much could we learn if as a community we allowed/encouraged/facilitated those who are inter-gender to communicate their experiences irrespective of their born sex.
In the particular scenario I presented, the person envisaging SRS could see the issues and rewards of their chosen journey just by talking to others who are “already there”. Once again, if we can use some gender “scale” to bind together the community , irrespective of born sex, then I see great advantages. But I agree – this one is real dream stuff!!!

4. Understanding diversity.
There is a long way between those who identify as essentially male and those who identify as female. I want to consider that we belong to one gender spectrum. But, as the TgR survey shows, if you ask questions of the whole spectrum the answers you receive obscure the significant differences. You don’t notice that one particular part of the spectrum experiences challenges that others do not encounter. So, to get an idea how male morphs into female on this spectrum you do I feel need to divide it up in some meaningful way. And that of course is where this whole concept of MMM,FMM,FFMM,FFFM,FFFF started out!

I figure those who are happily FFFF or MMMM are going to find it hard to put their heads into the space I’m coming from. I know I find it hard to do the reverse. But please try – it won’t blow your mind!

[Jennett]

Sorry all if I too cannot embrace Scales but I know Amanda is on the right track with her views which basically mirror my own but without all the big words and exactness. J
I guess all this and life in general all boils down to labels, especially from the moment we are born.
Gender or sex and what life you are going to live is instantly defined now by whether you have an extension or a cubby house. And again this is in most cases where those vital bits are clearly defined, but even then a healthy child can look different to ‘Normal Down There’ and some ‘Expert’ will make a BIG decision based on nothing more than hope.
Our looks at birth as in all aspects of physical and mental well being is not 100% defined, whether it be gender or sex.
As such a Mother will jokingly say, ‘Oh dear I had a boy, but I wanted a girl so I could dress her up.’ I personally suffered and will never forget the non-meant torment.
Society basically ‘demands’ that said child is reared as such to be ‘normal’. Yes we hear of cases where the Parents have raised their child as a Person and without a sex conformity. Friends as such have no real idea what Sex the child is and the child is allowed to grow into the Gender they are comfortable with.
What I am trying to say is that years ago, some highly paid ‘Expert’ predicted that one day Society would dress, forgot the big word but it meant it would all be Unisex without male or female aspects.
I, being a non paid dummy can see that it has gone the other way and that a Women’s world is so self centred that they are now driving themselves to suicide to be the ‘best’.
At the end of the day we ALL have to find a way to remove the barriers and especially embrace the concept of Men have emotions too.
As Amanda said “we all know of a Tomboy Gal and plenty of us are innocently the same in reverse.”
And nothing more.

[Elizabeth]

All these clever folk trying their damnest to make head and tale of their gender leanings, whether right or wrong. Where on earth does it get them? nowhere I be bound. We are what we are, full stop!
We have gender spectrums, black and white with a lot of grey areas, and at the end of the day we are what we are. I have a massive headache trying to digest it all. When I was a little boy, say five or six years of age, I knew something was not sitting right in my mind. I was only five or six years of age and couldn’t be expected to know what the problem was, nor how to articulate what I thought of as a problem. I was still that little boy who liked the company of girls, I like girls toys, dolls and tea sets and playing house. I still didn’t know why I hated sport (still do), thought that people who shot each other in war were stupid (still do) and couldn’t understand why people were so nasty to one another (still do). All this trying to differentiate the differences between FMMM, FFFF etc doesn’t really help me become myself. In my seventies, I’m still struggling to come to terms with myself. Quite frankly I don’t think I will ever succeed in truly accepting myself. The educated and professional gurus of gender don’t really know, so how the hell am I supposed to know.
I am what I am, primarily unknown to myself and still struggling in my old age. Just what are you offering in your discussions? any help, I don’t think so.

Liz

[Adrian]

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Just what are you offering in your discussions? any help, I don’t think so.Liz

Granted the world is split between those who question and are driven by why…and those who just want to be left alone with their thoughts. In the nicest way ignorance for many is bliss. Sometimes when travelling I often envy the simplicity of a peasant’s unquestioning life.

I get a lot of help reading the posts from others that try to make sense of this gender mess we are all in. That’s why I enjoy robust discussions like the one in this thread. So I can answer – yes we are offering help – albeit only to those who are prepared to engage. The proof is the fact that I (and I hope others) find it a help. The reality is that any answers to a puzzle this complex are not going to be offered on a plate in a forum post – they are going to be found by those who sift through all the evidence, ideas and thoughts.

But you don’t have to engage with the questioners of the world if you don’t want to. The joy of forums – read what interests you and skip the rest.

Personally I get no comfort in seeing people who are not accepted by society, who make decisions that drive them into deeper uncertainty and confusion, who seek support but find that those supporting them know less about them than they do. Its depressing stuff – and so I am determined to keep on turning over this gender puzzle till our collective understanding improves.

Perhaps we need another coloured sticker for TransFormal… one for don’t take my picture…and another for don’t confuse me with your ideas!! Now that IS off-topic!

[Elizabeth]

Amanda wrote:
Sometimes when travelling, I often envy the simplicity of a peasant’s unquestioning life.

Let’s get one thing straight from the start, even if it is slightly off topic; I’ve been researching, consulting, thinking, discussing with people who definately, or should know, but don’t really. There are many who think they have an idea, and maybe they have, but it’s an idea only. There are no concrete conclusions, you are only scratching the surface! And I am not ashamed to have my photograph taken en femme!
My wife and I were dining out last night and discussing the ins, outs and the why’s of transgenderism. Her idea is as good and as sound as any I’ve come across. ‘The blueprint at birth was set, but something went wrong’ What went wrong perhaps we will never really know? Of all the psychiatrists and psycologists I have consulted none know a definitive answer to our challenge. The nearest I’ve come across is; ‘sit with it like a brick in your lap’ in other words accept your place dealt in life. Hence that is why transgenderism/transsexualism has been retained in the upcoming DSM V. For those who still endeavour to find their place in the world, good luck, I hope you find that place and some inner peace. We peasants who are still searching are really trying to find an acceptance and inner peace which had eluded us all of lives because in the final analysis that is what life is all about.

[Jennett]

I know Amanda is only trying to help our world and nothing She says is ever meant to be cruel or unkind.
Which is why she bothers to keep TGR going, for better or worse as it may be at times.
Yes we have all read until our brain bursts. And we all have different opinions but such is life.
Wheress like the simple Peasent Amamnda present he only has to worry about his simple STRESS free existence where he actually (and truly) ENJOYS life and the simple things he has we have such a complicated life in general fearing the unknowns and trying to conform.
Life today is extremely stressful, and it would be lovely to know how much and what percentage of us suffer even more so.
And basically we have everything we need. Except true peace and happiness.
As a Phillipino friend of mine says, ‘When I go home the people are so happy and friendly and they have no wordly goods. But when I come here everybody has everything, but I see very few smiles and very few are happy. And so many people go on and suicide! I am totally confused as Australia seems to be such a screwed up place.”
FTW and start to look after YOURSELF, because at the end of the day you are the only one who can.
Jennett

[Anonymous]

When I was born, it was decided for me that I was MMMM.

When I was very young, I displayed FFMM tendencies.

As I grew to early teens, I saw myself as FFFM.

Late teens, early 20’s, I would have displayed FMMM tendencies and would have come up as that on tests. Either consciously or unconsciously, we answer questions based on what we think the tests are looking for.

Then I progressed to FFMM, onto FFFM and now totally FFFF.

Like anything in our lives scales only represent who we are at any particular time.

I am comfortable being FFFF now in my life. I don’t question who I am or what I am. I don’t have that brick in my lap any more. I know my own past and am finally comfortable with that. I know where I put that brick down.