I’m both [..Male and Female..]

[Anonymous]

I feel it’s every TGed persons responsibility to not bring shame to our community for the greater good.
Sure be yourself but also consider those around you.
Society already sees us as weird and freakish so the last thing we want to do it justify their negative views. IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Shannon has got a good point. Everything we do out there effects how the world views us. The once was a guy who put a dress on, took a really drink guy home and when he was passed out raped him. He never told him he was a guy or what ever he was trying to be. The next day the “guy in a dress” took the dress off and was just a guy. The next time the the victim and his friends ran into TS/TG/CD people, I got my head smacked in. I did not even know any of these people and found out the story later. I know these things will happen anyway, but it was a real life example of the extreame

Everything is linked so if you want to be different, just remember the how it effects everone else.

xxx

Kelly Jones

[Anonymous]

Hi..
Well since 22 aug 07 thats when i joined .TR,
i have learnt a lot .
one of those details is i know i m a androgynous person or a andro for short . that took 58 years to find out or work out . what a pity i had not known before yet would that have made any difference . i dought it .
of cause i live as a woman as many T R girls know & have seen me .
I m happy being who i am that mix of both, i came out as a woman to Jos first then our grown up kids & grand kids . why , because i accepted my self from age 10 . i knew i had extra bits & some missing some of that has been sorted . & i m more than happy with how i look . hey im not a chick . at 62 just a older & wiser woman . with a male past . or back ground .
The point is if you can accept your self thats the place to start . & it so makes things so much easyer to get you to were you need to go .
It takes time as you can see . of cause every one else as well,. & i m accepted as a woman . that has been a big plus ,
Of cause that does not change who i am ,it does help tho to be able to be accepted wether you are male or female or like this kid a mix of both ,yet more important is that you can be accepted ,i v proved that . both here & in australia,
We can over look the fact that because we are different we wont be accpted . well that can depend on our attatude our demeaner & how we react to people .
if we see our selfs as others do then, are we open to people friendly & invite them in to our lifes ,i did . & those people went out of thier way to help me . now that is acceptance they could have told me to bugger off .
i never thought ever , these people would do as much for me as they did ,
well i was so surprised . & i thank them . it all will work out for the best . if we start in the right way .

…noeleena…

[Anonymous]

Hi girls…it’s been some time since I put a post up,but this subject is close to my heart,so here’s my 2 cents worth.I totally agree with what Kelly & Shannon say..the image we project out there in public is important to our goal of being accepted by society,and we have to remember if we want respect,we have to earn it.that is one of the reason’s I have,of late,pulled away from the TG community to a degree,as I’ve seen so much behaviour going on that only attracts negative comments from people.I live in a largish country town in SA,and yet I’ve never encountered any problems yet,quite the opposite has been my experience….why?…I beleive it’s simply because I live my life in such a way as to blend in with the crowd ,so to speak.yes,people know I’m TG.

But…..the way they see me living my life,and the things I do,give them no reason to treat me any differently to anyone else…Ive even developed friendships with a few of the people that I deal with in my day to day life,and any of you girls out there can achieve the same goals…so please,for your own sakes,and that of the TG community in general…do everything you can in your power to foster good relations with society…it’s the only way we will ever gain acceptance and respect…and dont we all want that?…..hugs Cate

[Anonymous]

wow, i didn’t know that such topic existed and has extended its thread up to now (silly me:-p)… after having a good read at each post, here are some of my thoughts on this issue:

-we are such a diverse group of people, aren’t we?
-all of us want to be happy with who we are in our lives
-at the same time we also want to be accepted by people around us and develop positive relationships with them…
-irrespective of where/who we are on the gender spectrum (straight, gay, bi, trans, gender-queer), fostering positive relationships with people around us is very important and can at times be a trial-and-error process:
-if the way we are acting and presenting ourselves works, then keep it.]]
-if our actions (and presentations) are drawing negative attention/reaction from others, we can: 1. make some modifications in the way we act/present ourselves (as long as we’re not compromising our identity); 2. choose to interact with another group of people and see how they react…
– i believe we can find a healthy balance between who we are and our relationship/interactions with ppl as long as we approach it in a wise way…

bye for now… k

[Anonymous]

Hello All,
I have found the topic discussion presented here both informative and a bit overwhelming in its breadth of implications for myself , though perhaps understandable for those of you who are much further down the road than I am…I’m watching the signposts but my destination is still in doubt ..and the brakes seem ineffective…woe be to those youthful drivers who share the road with us over cautious mature drivers!! I do proceed with some humour inspite of myself and yes , certainly I am consumed by envy for all of you utterly beautiful girls like kirsty… if only I knew what you know now -30 years ago. But I didn’t and more regrettably…I still don’t- hence this query.

So while on the topic of my naivety I don’t really understand the significance of the ‘karotype test’. My embarrassingly modest research on the subject seems to focus on potential birth defects rather than gender/sensibility issues. (I’m sure I could feel some vindication as a ‘birth defect’ beyond my general weirdness already discussed above) Obviously, and in a rational light, this has a temporal dimension that may be relevant not only to me in terms of understanding/rationalizing my femininity for myself but also to imagining/anticipating future tendencies within the family lineage; with my by now, late teenage sons. (refer here to other posts/discussions on whether being TG is heritary)

So… I’m rather unsure of its relevance. Perhaps taking that a step further into the future does my chromosome makeup effect /impact on my by now diminishing testosterone levels?..(being ever more girly!) or even contemplated hrt treatments should I consider this option/direction?

I suppose my concern or interest comes down to an attempt, like many of us to understand (not excuse) the whys of who I am-topic male/female?. While I cannot presume to speak for everyone and certaianly not all those overlapping categories already discussed: the reality of life as a transgendered person is no bed of roses and this is as much an internal (my psyche) problem as it is a social reality that I can blame on other’s indifference. -Heal thy self first as is said….So therefore I would like to know before I speculate, on how can I expect to be tested (descretely if possible)- who does it and what does it mean?- how do I interpret the data and its impact?

As a general disclaimer there is no attempt to diminish or question the earlier and fascinating arguments explored above- just a personal aside here- sorry to be peripheral to the topic. I’m sure I am too disposed to wanting to understand the growing body of evidence that clarifies our reality beyond personal impressions.

respectfully,
Sonya

[Anonymous]

Hi..Sonya

Karyotype for me is 46xy male body ,
The mind or brain is a mix of both male & female thats me ,
,
For you when you get your blood count done just ask for that as well to be done if you put the words up on the net you can find out what they all mean . to me not a lot in regard to who i am i iknow who i am & that is all that matters not wether i m this or that as to my 46 xy
If we try to find the why we are like the way we are & i dought it very much apart from going nuts in the prosess theres not much point really because you will never be happy or content with who you are

What i see is first off is if we dont or cant accept our selfs first then
we have major problems its not a birth defect or being weired ,
if we are intersex thats just t & e there is a lot more than i m saying of cause reacting on our bodys . & there are cross overs going on in our bodys while in the mums body & yes there is a lot more than we know about & theres too many factors going on as well before birth . & even after because of many things . i m thinking your trying to blame your self dont bother its not worth it & same for others down the line in your family remember the chemicls that are in food water & pretty much every thing does have a bearing as well so dont take on whats not there . just allow your self to be you .as a woman do as i v done just grow as one ,

…noeleena…

[Anonymous]

Thanks Noelena for the encouragement.

To clarify, I suppose I’m personally just interested in equal measure in appreciating the ‘science’ not to rationalize my feeling/emotions but perhaps to give them a context- the overlapping of the layers you describe produces a beautiful fabric that for me enriches and gives depth to my feelings.

I think in particular being male/female affords all of us a unique social/emotional perspective that certainly provokes thought and a degree introspection that others may not feel compelled to imagine by virtue of the mixed feelings /metaphors we are given to engage/explore. I personally hope this simply provides a stimulus to achieve a broad sense of ‘knowledge’ as the goal of sensing ourselves complete in a world/society that is constantly evolving. For the younger girls amoung us I would say in this repect how lucky you are to have so much knowledge (social/cultural and scientific) at your disposal to offer you an informed, expressive and emotional awareness about yourselves.

cheers to all,
Sonya

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Thanks Noelena for the encouragement.

To clarify, I suppose I’m personally just interested in equal measure in appreciating the ‘science’ not to rationalise my feeling/emotions but perhaps to give them a context- the overlapping of the layers you describe produces a beautiful fabric that for me enriches and gives depth to my feelings.

I think in particular being male/female affords all of us a unique social/emotional perspective that certainly provokes thought and a degree introspection that others may not feel compelled to imagine by virtue of the mixed feelings /metaphors we are given to engage/explore. I personally hope this simply provides a stimulus to achieve a broad sense of ‘knowledge’ as the goal of sensing ourselves complete in a world/society that is constantly evolving. For the younger girls among us I would say in this respect how lucky you are to have so much knowledge (social/cultural and scientific) at your disposal to offer you an informed, expressive and emotional awareness about yourselves.

cheers to all,
Sonya

With out a doubt my favourite post of the year so far!!!!

So true… it’s just a real shame that the general public see us as perverted freaks.
Just as long as no one wonders why I generally consider a-good-handful-of-people out there to be ignorant, judgemental, selfish and worthy of avoidance.
Which is really just two ends of a magnet I know but I feel it’s more in their hands. We smile, we’re nice, we’re harmless, we don’t ask to be called names… yet …go figure.
There’s no common sense amongst the common.

Moderator

Quote:

This thread is wandering well away from the original topic of being both male and female… but I can’t pin down where it is going.
Its also moving away from its foum which is “Gender and Sexuality”.

Can we please stop the journey – and if necessary start a new thread on why the general public see us a freaks – in a more appropriate forum

[Anonymous]

It seems to me that a good part of the problem of working out what degree of male/ female we are, is that we all have our own ideas ( often strongly stereotyped) of what men and women are. The lines that Society sets are very variable , in the middle ground ( the extremes are not worth bothering with ) and an hour sitting at the local Mall will show that these lines are blurred in the young and stronger in the older folk. We self impose a lot of the borders to gender, even today a young woman told me she wanted to know what sex her child was going to be so she could get clothes of the “right” colour!
On a related matter in this thread,while a beard and frock is not to my taste, and sorry but I would feel embarrassed to be near someone thus arrayed, I do feel that it is not up to anyone else to criticize someone for choosing this form of self expression Who are we to talk?? We want a choice and the right to self expression and yet censure others for having the guts to be variant to our “tastes”.
It is also not anyone elses fault if a dickhead chooses to abuse and assault us( other than the dickhead’s and perhaps our own if we are in a dangerous place inappropriately) If I choose to straddle the gender lines in my home town and you do not, in yours, how am I responsible if you are assaulted- in another city? Perhaps we all need to take responsibilty for our own lives and leave others to theirs?
Why do we allow ourselves to be controlled by the mainstream gender boundaries? What is the payoff for Trans folk to follow the binary and risk falling short of the” ideal”? It is fine for the beautiful LUCKY ones who have the right genes in the” lottery of looks “but we ugly buggers , who will never pass as a beautiful woman must do what we can with our lot. Sometimes that means choosing to be androdynous in our everyday life, in an effort to be true to ourselves , are we less a true Transgender for making that choice? I don’t think we are.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

This thread is wandering well away from the original topic of being both male and female… but I can’t pin down where it is going.
Its also moving away from its foum which is “Gender and Sexuality”.

Can we please stop the journey – and if necessary start a new thread on why the general public see us a freaks – in a more appropriate forum

TO clarify my post in response to Sonya’s post about the male/female identity, my response was an observation of the publics response to people that publicly show as both male and female, hardly wandering in my opinion. Oh yeah forum as an R in it.

---

Quote:

If I choose to straddle the gender lines in my home town and you do not, in yours, how am I responsible if you are assaulted- in another city? Perhaps we all need to take responsibilty for our own lives and leave others to theirs?

wwuuuuhhhhhhh????????? Even though we have individual communities in each state we as a whole, as a minority still influence the general worlds view of the TG communities. If we as a whole want to convince the world that we are decent people then we have to (unfortunately) do it their way.. it’s just a sad fact of life. You can try all your life to do it the hard way but it won’t work. If you feel a need to appear more gender neutral presenting both male and female then you as an individual will have to deal with the general publics response which in our life time will not change, it’s a slow process and it is happening but there are know ways that work against us such as this. I know as an individual I won’t change their opinion but as a whole we stand a better chance, over time.

It’s all very well to say yeah have boobs and beard good on ya stick it to the man, be yourself etc. But the reality is, once you come back down to earth it is not that easy. People will hate on you, life will be hard.. you have to ask yourself is it worth it for what? Can you really compromise? If it means you’ll get on a lot better in life without jeopardising your fellow TGers.
FACT: the world hates us… why throw more logs on the fire?????????

Quote:

Why do we allow ourselves to be controlled by the mainstream gender boundaries? What is the payoff for Trans folk to follow the binary and risk falling short of the” ideal”?

We can’t change the world over night, we, those that live as both male and female are not the only ones that have to conform to get by. But you are still free to challenge it, but like other minorities it doesn’t have to be at the risk of your sisters/brothers.

Quote:

It is fine for the beautiful LUCKY ones who have the right genes in the” lottery of looks “but we ugly buggers , who will never pass as a beautiful woman must do what we can with our lot. Sometimes that means choosing to be androdynous in our everyday life, in an effort to be true to ourselves , are we less a true Transgender for making that choice? I don’t think we are.

No of course not if anything more so… but if you are someone that chooses or needs to live an androynous lifestyle whether you are beautiful or not you still face the same discrimination.

Moderator

Quote:

Oh yeah
I think you mean androgynous?
And publics has an apsotrophe
Touché

[Anonymous]

Hi..

We need to consider were we live the people we mix with & age all so has a part to play . more so for me at 62 my peers are in the main about my age the groups i am in are great they have accepted who i am ,

The way i look & how i do things this counts in how we are accepted its not so much the dress make up or even my voice . why well they some of them at the time i told them what i was doing in becoming a woman yet they knew my back ground so for me being a andro is not a detail that is ever brought up let alone my background because that is or was known then 3 years ago .
now i still have to do manual work not full time being retired & does that matter no the other clubs i am a part of just talk to me with out a concern .
the main point is because i m a andro i cant look like a young girl / woman so for me its not looks its how i present my self as a person .
I do talk to 100 s of people & yes of cause some like to know about the whys & how yet the acceptanc is much the same .
I am fortunate in having other attrbutes going for me as a person . not the i have to be a male ,,female ,, or a andro this is why i say if you are accepted for who you are thats the nuts & bolts of being accepted & yes i am ,
I do know some are not accepted . i have walked behind some trans about 8 feet back & watched other people coming up in front of us not even look at me yet take a hard look at my trans friends . yet it should have been me they look at because i was the one that would be more out of place & most of you have ether seen my pic or seen & met me
Im not saying people dont look at me they do to see what i m wearing or oh an other woman not the what the heck is this .
Now of cause i dont wear a wig just head wear or a scarve
Now for those who are more andro in how they present would you say people are confused . or they think oh male or may be female ,

So because i go up to people & just talk even never have met them before yet they talk to me like we have known each other for years . so that interaction is there i spos i am confident enough to just do it
as a andro i accept my self fully so i over come the fear of trying to be male or female & just accept the way i am .

…noeleena…

[Anonymous]

Shannon, I agree with much that you are saying but disagree on some points. Of course we must take the consequences of our choice of self expression , those of us who choose to be open about ourselves in public already are dealing with those consequences, good or bad though they may be. I also agree that some people may see the behaviour of some TG folk as an indicator of the behaviour of ALL TG people but I think that that is not a fair belief. I do not speak or act for the TG community nor do I wish to be a representative for it. Of course, were I to go about being disrespectful of others and rubbing my Trans self in other peoples faces, I would be disrespected and admonished but that applies to everyone , regardless of their sexual persuasion. There is a fine line between being honest and open about onesself and being an exhibitionist but I don’t expect others to accept me , in fact I refuse to even ask that from them, we have the right to be ourselves and as long as we are respectful to others , they can take it or leave it as far as I am concerned.
I find that few people ever say anything rude or abusive, those that do, never to my face, when asked, on occasions, to come back and repeat it they choose not to. Perhaps they feel ashamed of their actions?
Where do you get the view that” FACT, the world hates us”???? If that is your experience then I am sad for you. I believe that people have the right to hate me but have never felt that they do. This town is small and there are the usual redneck bogans but I treat others with respect and expect the same in return, usually I am not disapointed.

I agree that our bearded friend in QLd has chosen a harder road than need be , all I am saying is that it is her choice and so she alone is facing the consequences as she reports and as you suggested. Why should her or anyone elses life reflect on ours?
Also as regards androgyny, I am simply saying that for many of us, it is the best we can do with what the years have dealt us. Were I to be young and lovely , I would be happy to present as a beautiful woman , ironically, the fact that I can’t brings me into line with experience of most women . As the saying goes ” half the women in the world want to look like a supermodel and only 8 do.!!”

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I agree that our bearded friend in QLd has chosen a harder road than need be , all I am saying is that it is her choice and so she alone is facing the consequences as she reports and as you suggested. Why should her or anyone elses life reflect on ours?

I’m assuming you are speaking of me and thank you.
but living my life as true to me is not a choice I made. Just like no one chooses to be trans presenting totally Male is painfull beyond belief and if I’m too far toward Female then I’m just living a different Lie I’m no
longer a regular at ATSAQ but have found friendship and acceptance at Freedom gender identity group on the gold coast. I still feel very lonely being the only Male born genderqueer person in Brisbane. I live as me I know I’m different to all the M2F people who have spent large amounts on time & money to fit in as females.
My Path is hard mostly because I can’t find other people like me I’ve met some Female born Gender queer people who I’m able to relate to well.
But the only choice I’ve made is to accept who I am and to be true to my values.

[Anonymous]

Hi Kiera, I had almost forgotten this thread. I guess I must have been writing about you, I respect your right to present in anyway that you find honest to your feelings about your self , though I feel that you must also take responsibility if the actions of others are not what you would like. I am not saying, of course, that they have the right to be rude or disrespectful but if they are uncomfortable with your gender presentation then that is their right. We cannot make others like us.
As for “choice” . as I have said elsewhere, I believe that we may have no choice in being transgender but we do have a choice how we present that difference to the world. Noone MAKES you wear a dress and a beard at the same time! We are not automatons who must do what we feel, we are all adult humans with a mind that can decide. Of course we can also decide to believe that we are poor creatures who cannot have responsibility for our actions but I just feel that to do so is not healthy for our minds or souls ( whatever they are!)