Labels.. do we need them, should we have common definitions?

[Anonymous]

I applied a label for myself when I was 4 years old – “I’m a girl”. I did not say, ‘I want to be …. ‘

Because the ‘accepted’ meaning of these various words is so diverse, and not infrequently cliched, I don’t know what other people mean when they use terms like TG/TV – television? or TS.

My birth certificate says I’m “female”. I’m happy with that.

For those who need to apply a lable to me, that’s there issue, and they can find somebody else to discuss/debate semantics. Most disappointing is the reality that, aside from those who seek to find where they fit in this conundrum, so many of the non-gender dyspohric others want to meld sexual deviant into their definitions.

The issue is about accepting ourself, and then getting on with living, and enjoying our life

Hugs
Christina

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I applied a label for myself when I was 4 years old – “I’m a girl”. I did not say, ‘I want to be …. ‘

Because the ‘accepted’ meaning of these various words is so diverse, and not infrequently cliched, I don’t know what other people mean when they use terms like TG/TV – television? or TS.

My birth certificate says I’m “female”. I’m happy with that.

Heh! Not quite what I had in mind, but equally as valid..

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For those who need to apply a lable to me, that’s there issue, and they can find somebody else to discuss/debate semantics. Most disappointing is the reality that, aside from those who seek to find where they fit in this conundrum, so many of the non-gender dyspohric others want to meld sexual deviant into their definitions.

There is 2 problems there… first if someone labels you (or me), not a problem, if they then talk to others and use that label and the ‘others’ have a different idea of the label…. see the issue? Second, there are those who would purport to be TG who have shown indications of the sexual deviance… I know at least one, and then you have the problem of the safe guards that others will imposed on you to prevent issues with them… But that is worth of a topic on it’s own so I’m going to leave it at that

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The issue is about accepting ourself, and then getting on with living, and enjoying our life

Reminds me (if topic wandering) of a recent blog entry I made:

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Well I have spoken to many other Trans-Gendered people and it never ceases to amaze me how much people are concerned at how they “pass”. Personally I am who I am, I don’t care if people know I am transgendered so long as they are polite and treat me with the same respect and courtesy as they do with everyone else. The interesting thing …..

Take care,

Shells

[Fay]

Interesting and dangerous topic.

There are so many infinate variations. Each and every person is individual and different. There are no two of us that have identical preferences.

It’s a bit like the 16 Briggs Meyer boxes. There is probably a box each of us can associate with but the edges are rubbery and flexible and there are exeptions!

I think labels can be useful to lay some initial ground rules but they are only a rough guide to begin exploring the true person.

Also we may begin our journey with one label and find we slowly change as we experience and develop down this intocicating path. I know I have.

Hugs,

Fay

[Anonymous]

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Also we may begin our journey with one label and find we slowly change as we experience and develop down this intocicating path. I know I have.

This is very true especially for me. When I came to terms with my desires and started dressing when ever I was home I classed myself as a crossdresser as this was the only term I knew. Actually I also knew the term transvestite but the media has put such negative conotations with this name that I disliked it. It was later I learnt about the terms transgendered TV and TS. Later when the depression of having to revert back to my birth gender got to much and I started living full time as a woman I reclassified myself as TV. As time went on I starting hating the fact that I had to remove my breastforms at night as it made me feel fake. Made me feel everything was illusion. At this time the need to transform and remove as much of the fakeness as I could put me on the path to transition and I again reclassified myself this time as TS.

Nowadays I prefer to use none of these terms. Even though I am still pre-op the only classification I use for myself is I am a woman.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think that we need to worry about what we label ourselves as because we all know where we’re at in life and we are the ones that have been to councillors etc. to sort out our feelings and so on. In this community of ours where we have understanding/like-minded friends it’s not an issue because we all understand one another. The hassle is when you are dealing with uninformed members of society who have a simple belief that we are “trannies” or “freaks” and so on. To bring someone up to speed or to talk in terms that they understand is when the label thing comes into play so that we can get through to them, it’s not needed anywhere else I feel.

Anyway girls, that’s my two cents worth on this possibly sensitive/dangerous topic!

Peta A.

P.S. All I consider myself to be is Peta, I’m just a girl getting on with her life. Maybe I guess that some people would call me a woman due to my age but so what?

[Anonymous]

sometimes i think that we need labels to help us understand the chaos that is around us. the earth goes around the sun so we record a full cycle, a year.

in this crazy trans-universe of ours, it’s not quite that easy. it’s easy if you are clearly within one of the boxes (stephanie, christina … just plain, “female”). but as fay rightly points out, there are many boxes and they are rubbery (i know a few girls who (proudly) fit that exactly ). so it’s not so easy if you are on the borderline. and as fay also points out, quite a few of us seem to flow from one box to another as the journey progresses (so the boxes themselves remain static, it’s just the people within them that change). interestingly, many people’s journeys seem to stop at one box for one reason or another. and let’s be honest, there’s no shame in being whatever box you want to be in, just as long as you are coping with any distress or impairment this may cause you.

so if we really need to have labels, we can look to the so called experts. that’s why last year, i posted on here a link to the national center for transgender equality. maybe their information is based on a little bit more research and scientific foundation than a bare paragraph or two on wikipedia:

http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F5/2656-656

and you will see that the good folks at ncte have a fact sheet containing transgender terminology too (a label sheet?):

http://www.transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_TransTerminology.pdf

i note that the terminology list doesn’t make any distinction on the basis of sexual arousal from wearing clothes of the opposite sex. although they do mention it in their FAQ sheet:

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People used to believe that crossdressing was a purely sexual fetish. Now, however,
we know that for most people it is much more complex than that. While crossdressers
may find it sexually appealing and gratifying, they may also experience emotional and
psychological fulfillment from it. It is one way that people may express who they are.

http://www.transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_UnderstandingTrans.pdf

anyway, they seem to think that labels can be useful … even if it is a rough guide.

gosh, no wonder the general public have difficulty in understanding our predicament! and we haven’t even started on distinctions within the transsexual community, either (pre, non, post etc).

maybe we should not worry about the labels and just enjoy whatever space we are in!

love and peace

[Anonymous]

I feel a little responsible for starting this ‘label’ discussion and I want to say sorry. My motives were not to stir up trouble or cause divisions. They came from pure frustration at society, let me explain…

I spent the whole of this week answering questions for senior and middle management about my work transition. OMG, you should have heard the labelling and all the crap I had to sit through, the preconceived ideas, myths and prejudice opinion. Basically, it came down to ignorance.

At the end of it, my last meeting was yesterday afternoon, I was so over it! I think I took out my frustration here, sorry!

However here in TR we should be free of these and just accept one another for who we are, regardless where we are at in our journey. I know I feel strongly about that, it’s all about respect

On a personal note, I want to apologise for some of my comments in that post. I shouldn’t generalise members here on TR just because I’ve had some bad experiences with a few. Those who really know me know that I’m not a mean person and one who causes fights. Forgive me for my lapse of judgment on this matter

Please accept my apology

Amy
xx

[Anonymous]

I fail to see why this topic should be a dangerous one if we are willing to accept others as they wish to be seen. It is often very hard to explain ones inner workings to an “outsider” unless they are willing to accept your view out of respect to you ie. a friend. If others can’t see past their own filters and prejudices then no number of labels are going to help. I am more than happy to tell people about myself if they are respectful and ask because they are genuinely interested in me and my life. If not they can ….
My view is that if we were to describe what we do eg. I cross dress, I wear womens clothes etc, then we just invite more questions ” eg.why” and a discussion can ensue but do we want to discuss it with everyone? Not really, life is too shot! It is however , a more accurate way to describe our actions. A label makes it a lot quicker to help others to know a bit about yourself but invites misunderstanding , as others have said.
The only solution I think is to accept what others think about themselves and see past the exterior to the inner person. Very ” new agey” I know !!
For myself, Transgender fulfills the broader range of my lifestyle and is enough to give others when they ask( which is not very often unfortunately!!!!)

[Anonymous]

I think this thread, so far is helpful. No need ot apologise – to me anyway

My experience has been that finding the language to describe myself adequetly to myself was always problematic. Finding the words that describe how I feel, who I am was hard for me becuase all the appropriate lables that relate to me were taboo, when I grew up and in the culture I was/am part of

Bit of a catch 22 – having names for who and what I am was part of working things out for myself, yet those same names described things that are wrong and out of the question, putting finding anf accepting myself further out of reach

My thoughts anyway on th problematic nature of lables. Mayeb its partly about the intent behind their use?

Hope it made sense!

S

[Anonymous]

I have done the marriage/partner thing. That made me a partner/husband. We had children so I became a father/dad.

To my sister I was her brother and now she calls me sis. I am an uncle to my neice and still am but she refers to me as her and she.

To my parents, I will always be their son who they accept is progressing towards being a woman. I am still their son but they are getting used to her and she.

I have wanted to be both someones boyfriend and grilfriend.

I was a Mr but now I am a Ms.

The only letters I get that get it right are the “Dear Sir/Madam” ones.

So, as for a label regarding my sexuality, you could try pansexual, autogynephilic, asexual, bisexual, non-sexual, eunuch, transwoman, straight, gay, CD, TV……….. Take your pick. They are all correct at some stage. Personally, I am just who I am and finally free of the labels I used to try to define myself by. If you need a label to describe who/what I am, feel free, I promise not to be offended. There are plenty to pick from.

[Anonymous]

I’d say this divides into two groups, those that are on the inside (us) and those on the outside (general public).
We see the labels differently to those on the outside, we see them as overcomplicated and some of them to be unnecessary, confusing and damaging.
The outside world see the labels and judge them on what is socially and conventional expected. Most would just lump us all down into one basket “freaks”, because it’s too much to learn of something they have no interest in.
To try and explain to most people the several differences between TG, TS, CD, GQ etc etc they would just switch off after two seconds then go back to the preset “freaks”. To me this is the reality, sure some may NEED to know or know someone that has this as part of their lives so they have an interest in it on a personal level so they actually know something about it.

I’d say labels are important for the general public, because really expecting someone to nod and agree when you say “oh hi I’m female” (not that you would say that directly but you know what I mean) and for them to say “yep sure” without any countering internal dialogue.

Everyone is going to react differently to labels I can never see them being well established any time soon though it would be nice.
I can see how we may need to go through, as a society a period of having labels, just like we did before we realised they were pointless.

The general public are like children on this topic, they understand it about as much as we did when we were five, eight whatever wondering what the f? why? why? why? etc.

Only most of the public have no real obligation to understand it.
The thought of walking around without anyone giving us weird looks and seeing us the same way we see ourselves, is still but very much a dream. I’d say they need those labels like they are training wheels, once they get it then they can shake them off and get on with life.. without them I don’t think they would truly understand.. and secretly revert back to the “Freaks” label.

[Adrian]

Firstly thank you everyone for having such an intelligent discussion on this potentially emotionally loaded topic. I do think it is good for the community to talk these things through.

It is a excellent distinction that Muffin has made about the difference between labels used within the community, and those used without.

Labels within:
I think my caution to this topic stems from the inappropriate use of labels within. We should all understand how diverse our community is, and be cautious of any label that has too narrow a definition, or which attempts to link sexuality with gender. The narrow labels just lead to hurtful things being said and fragmentation of the community.

In this space I like to see definitions that stick totally to the issue of gender, and the list that Virginia has referenced from the NCTE does seem to be a clean and considered starting point.
http://nctequality.org/Resources/NCTE_TransTerminology.pdf

My only minor concern is the NCTE definition of transexual which looks for the difference between a binary observation (assigned sex at birth) with something that is arguably a continuum (gender identity). But this is a quibble that only makes sense to discuss within the community (and to someone who likes the finer points of logic/maths).

Labels without:
When we move to the labels used outside our community this is a much less clear – as Muffin says – their education level on the topic is like that of a child at the moment. Someone wrote earlier that the general public categorise us as DQ, CD, TV or TS. Whilst i agree they generally understand what a drag queen is (and we are not!) they certainly don’t distinguish CD from TV , and only associate TS with well publicised individuals who are post-op.

I agree that we all have need from time to time for a label that can be grasped by the public but which provides the right message.

Into this space comes the community do-gooders who come up with a term “trans” that no one in the general public understands, and which isn’t even grammatically sound. I’m certainly never going to be trans (trans what?). Trans is NOT the message we are looking for.

My feeling is that because gender is the issue that binds the community – the word the public is taught to associate with us must have gender in it. How can we expect to educate the public that the issue faced by a transexual is their gender identity not who and how they want to have sex? It might be the word the medicos coined years ago – but that doesn’t make them any more right than the treatments they came up with to cure the “desease”.

So I come back every time to transgender – a word originally coined to describe what others are now starting to call pre-op transexuals. And anyhow – isn’t a post-op transexual just a woman? We don’t need a label for that!

And transgender is word that, to the general public says exactly what we are trying to tell them.

[Anonymous]

I thought I would add this to lighten the discussion.

I do want to share one conversation I had with a senior female member of staff. I would like to share for 2 reasons, firstly we have a tough job ahead to educate people and secondly, laugh amongst ourselves about it

This female member of staff believes that transgender people do not get married and have children. She also said and I quote “that transgender people are unable to produce sperm because they are transgender”.

Moderator

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Thank you Amy – in the midst of what must be a very difficult time for you at work – you can see the funny side of it all! Perhaps we need a new thread to collect the 100 misconceptions the public has about us!

[Anonymous]

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And anyhow – isn’t a post-op transexual just a woman? We don’t need a label for that!

.

Actually while I have identified as a transwoman or as I prefer ‘A woman of Transexual experience’ I am starting to lose the trans identity. I was approached on a dating site where I am identifying as female with the question….”Are you a post op tranny?” ….and I was actually quite offended when not so long ago it would have been ok.
I think the reason is that there apears to be an asumption of certain behaviours and characteristics associated with each of these lables (including ts) that seems to dehumanise each of us. So I’m just going to stick with ‘woman’ which is actually the most accurate label you could apply to me at the moment. Any other label reflects history.

[Anonymous]

I’m putting this into a post rather than an email because I feel that it is a better thing to do.

There is no need to make an apology Amy (as Amanda said) because we are having a good, sensible discussion as a result. We all have different issues with things of this nature while participating in society and a good talk is sometimes all that any of us need to get through the hassles that we have from time to time. I’m happy that this thread was started personally, it’s giving me some good thinking matter let me say that.

Peta A.