“Levels” of Transsexuality ??

[Anonymous]

Monique, you may be right in your opinion about primary versus secondary TS’s but again I think that we can only generalize so far. While many may be attracted to the idea of transition, I do not think that the majority have the absolute drive to do so. I do think that early on in life , those kids who display Tg aspects to their natures are mostly discouraged and so go underground.
The few kids I have encountered who were not ridiculed or discouraged have indeed gone on to be more openly transgender and happy . I could not have done this as I grew up in the 1950’s-60’s . Even though my mother subconsciously encouraged a less than ” normal” male child, she was not accepting of the result when I told her in my reality in my mid twenties.
I also think that a childhood environment that tells you that you are a worthy person and gives you encouragement to be yourself , would make you a more successful person whether you are TG or not.

It would be interesting to see how many folk on TR were in fact encouraged this way as children and how it affects them now. My guess is that is not the case for most of us?

[Anonymous]

Hi Christina and Monique

I like the premise of your thoughts Monique. A lot of people put forward the theory that gender is Binary – either male or female. However, there are many here who will attest to the theory that gender is fluid and there are many levels to male, female and in-between.

Like Christina, my mother subconsciously encouraged me to express my personality with a fair amount of freedom. I demonstrated many “feminine” behaviors, but because the majority of my friends were girls, she assumed this to be relatively normal. Even when others passed comments, she would dismiss it as a phase. It was only when puberty approached and I actually learned the “real” differences between boys and girls that I realised there was something terribly wrong.

My mother was very supportive and my father was mostly absent, and when he was around, did not make a good role model. However, the reactions I got from them when I asked to “be changed” as a teen left me feeling dirty, stupid and generally worthless. When I buried these feelings and outwardly displayed the behaviors expected of a young man, I was rewarded by being made to feel the complete opposite.

I spent the next 3 1/2 decades trying to override the basic programming that was obviously burned into my brain. So, on one level, I am a primary TS and on another, a secondary. It was not by my own choice that I fall into the latter category. My conscious realisation was definitely primary.

On Monday I watched a video of a 7 year old girl who quite bravely and without fear, told the story of how she was born a boy BUT that she knows and understands that her brain is actually a girl brain. It made me “almost” cry at the thought that this young girl, this brave unassuming little girl, has a HUGE chance of avoiding all of the nonsense that many of us have lived with due to the attitudes of society when we were young. She will be able to go on, have the treatments she needs and live a relatively normal life.

I look forward to hearing from many others about this subject.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Hi everyone…..
I was having a ‘deep and meaningful’ with myself the other day and I thought I would share my thoughts with you and see what you think.

I guess most of us have heard of the terms ‘primary’ and ‘secondary’ transexualism? Primary is supposed to be those that identify with their true sex very early in life…….you know,
grab a doll when they are like two years old and never look back !
Secondaries, like me, are supposed to be those that identify with their true sex later in life…ie. “late onset”.

Think there is a little more to it than that – I did put it up on MySpace ( http://www.myspace.com/michelle_i_sullivan ) a while a go what was told to me. In summary I determined the difference is “Always has considered themselves as” vs “Wants to be” (respectively). My doctor told me I was a secondary presentation, and I know I have wanted to be a woman since as long as I can remember (5/7 years old? – so age related I would be primary not secondary).

Quote:

I was thinking how these so-called “primary” T/S people seem so self-confident and determined to be who they are from an early age.
Could it be that it is in fact a difference, not of ‘primary’ or ‘secondary’ as far as “levels” are concerned, but simply self-confidence and insecutity.
Were they free to be themselves whereas I was not?
Most primary people that I have read about seem to be very confident and sucessful people….. coincidence?

Did I break the mold then? My doc says secondary, and I am confident (mostly), very vocal, very ‘out there’. I have had a successful business and am about move to the San Francisco (Ca, USA), buy my third house and get my third passport (so I can be hated in *every* country of the world at the same time! 😮 )

I personally think secondary vs primary has no connection with confidence and that it is more co-incidence. If there is a connection it is more likely that the primaries tend to be self confident… but I wouldn’t go any further than that.

Take care all,

Mhix (aka Shells)
xx

PS: New photo of me and more fun stuff off my new home page: http://www.mhix.org/

PPS: “Mhix” is Maltese for ‘She is not’ and is pronounced as ‘Meesh’ (vs Mix which is pronounced ‘Mish’ and means ‘He is not’)… Mhix is what seems to become my nickname here – though everyone writes Mich.. and says ‘Mhix’ when chatting!

[Anonymous]

I think there are two different parts to gender identity and they may not go together. Think of these not in black and white but grey scale.

Gender personality. Think and act like male or female. This part is transgender.

The next one I have difficulty in finding the words.

Core body image.
This is the mental model of the body held in the brain.
When this goes wrong I can result in feeling a leg or arm should not be there, and some individuals have felt the need to have a leg removed as that leg felt alien to them. This was on the ABC earlier 2011. People with this part crossed over may be the ones who feel the need for SRS.

Food for thought

[Adrian]

Quote:

Gender personality. Think and act like male or female. This part is transgender.
…

Core body image.
This is the mental model of the body held in the brain.
….
Food for thought

Yes, an interesting thought Vicki.

One of the challenges of debates like this, is that we can only evaluate interesting theories from our own perspective.
I can’t think how it must be to be a different person, and I’m sure if I did, I would be shot down with cries of “you don’t understand me”.

So, from the position of someone who sits firmly in the grey area, I can say that the way I think/act is neither the society stereotype of a male or a female – its just “me”.

So then is my mental model of my body male or female?
I’m not sure how I could find out, unless I develop a hate of some part of my physical body.
The weakness perhaps of the two parts model is that, if everyone has two parts, it isn’t obvious how to determine core body image separately from mental gender.

In fact, given this difficulty, I would propose that perhaps the mental image of the body has a causal relationship from the gender personality.
Why do I say this?

Well, lets assume that someone is born physically male, but the way they want to think/act (their gender personality) is stereotypically female.
What happens in their life?
Well, society doesn’t adapt well to people who don’t “fit in” – so the person will likely have a very rocky integration into society. This may cause depression, instability, difficulty forming relationships… and so on.. all the stuff of extreme gender dysphoria.

I would suggest that a likely outcome of this rejection would be to focus on what society uses to evaluate and pigeon-hole people – their physical appearance.
It wouldn’t be surprising, in these circumstances if the person developed a hatred for the physical aspects that stop them being accepted as who they are.

I know this is heresy to some, who see their core body image as a primary aspect of their gender diversity.
But from my perspective it fits.
The only aspects of my body I have developed a dislike for so far on my journey, have been the parts that directly get in the way of people accepting me for who I am.

More food for thought!

[Lisa_W]

Thank you Monique
I have only just discovered your very interesting post tonight & also TY to the girls who have contributed so far.

I have trouble with the concept of primary vs secondary TG’s. The majority of TG’s show a tendency to transgenderism prior to puberty. But for various reasons the majority deny/hide those tendencies. Some brave/fortunate souls are able to standup & say that they are different & demand to be accepted. Through the force of their own personality the majority them are – but not without their own individual struggles.

Does that make one type of TG different from the other? Are they different enough to warrant different labels. Personally I think not.

TG’s are born NOT made and when & how they express their true feelings about their true gender identity depends on a whole multitude of factors.

I think that the one common feature is that when a TG knows that he/she can no longer live in their assigned gender role they MUST change. They have no choice in the matter.

What we are discussing in a round-a-bout way is nature vs nuture & all the societal pressures that are brought to bear on a young immature impressionable brain.

I do not have the answers, but just another way to view this very interesting topic. Once again TY Monique for raising it.

[Anonymous]

Hi, I was very traumatized from an early age. I felt like a girl but I was pressured into acting male. I had my teddy bear taken from me as little kid and they replaced with a GI Joe doll complete with gun and bayonet.
I was made to feel ashamed when caught in my mother’s or sister’s clothing as a kid. I was ”pressed ganged” into dates with girls. My Dad never let up above marriage, kids, using what nature gave me (in not quite decent language). They ”encouraged” me to join the Army cadets. My doctor told me as kid to go play with the boys and that there was nothing wrong with me. I did everything they told me to do. By the time I was my thirties I was in and out of hospital with depression. I hate what was done to me by society’s and my family Docotr’s and parent’s expectations, and when I had female thoughts I either thought I was crazy and ashamed. To compound the problem there was no where to go for help. Now I am having to have grief counselling for the loss of a girlhood and the loss of all the milestones of womanhood. Even my doctor understands the grief that I am going through.

So am I primary or secondary?

[Elizabeth]

Hi everyone,
I identify with just about everything that had been written on this subject, but I particulararly identify with, and agree with Erika. I was told by the guru of Australian transsexualism that I came in as ‘secondary’ which at the time seemed to me to have negated my feelings etc throughout my life to the point of seeing the guru. The only reason I had kept everything bottled up for all those years was to comply with what was expected and indeed demanded. I guess I was squashed down into compliancy; I hated it, I hated myself, I hated my life. The result of everything was prolonged bouts of depression, suicidal thoughts and a couple of suicidal actions. Only when I inwardly told myself to stuff what other folk thought, and accepted myself did life for me change, for the better, thank God! I am what I am and I have no intention of changing or complying for anyone. Does it matter if I’m primary or secondary or anything else? I’m me, at long last enjoying life, albeit a little late but I’m taking every opportunity available, being with friends, being LIz as close to full time as is possible.

Hugs to everyone
Liz

By the way, I hope everyone has a happy, wonderful and safe Christmas.

[Anonymous]

Hi Girls , I was always getting into trouble from an early age for acting like a girl , my parents seeked help from everyone ! My Father gave up when I turned 10 and never acknowledged or talked too me again ! My Grandfather organised for me too be sent too Christian Brothers too fix me but after two years of tormenting they finally told my mother there was no use trying ! At 15 my mother said she could’nt stand the gossiping from friends and neighbours anymore and packed me a Knapsak ! I survived on the streets and got a job a rented room when I was 18 and Ella began too blossom ! My job turned into a carreare in fashion so cross dressing was accepted as me being extroverted !Everything was fantastic until 1974 at the tender age of 19 I got grabbed off the streete by a carload of Skinheads who thought I was a girl ! Luckily someone found me and I was taken too hospital where I spent 3 months in intensive care as a John Doe ! Ella disappeared for a decade and wat was left was something that I don’t like too discusse ! I’mm in my 50’s now and finally able too live fulltime and have never been happier ! I think it’s your surroundings and people in your life that determines outcome ! Cheers Ella-Kristine

[Anonymous]

Looking back on what people have said, I think there are grounds for a class action.
What I am reading are cases of child abuse on a grand scale.
Someone needs to held accountable for what happened to us as kids. What really burns me up is when people ask me, ‘’why did you not say something earlier’’, oh yeah, really?! – As if we would have been accepted back then at a time when they were arresting and jailing people for simply being homosexuals.
I have done a lot of crying while reading the above posts and I feel a lot of bitterness.
By the way, I could never function as a male despite the pressure to do so = the result? – A phobia about sexual intercourse. They talk about the lost generation – what about us – where is our apology?????

[JeniSkunk]

Quote:

They talk about the lost generation – what about us – where is our apology?????

Sadly, there won’t be one until Religion is unable to tell Governments what to think and what to do.

Jenifur Charne

[Adrian]

Moderator

Quote:

This is wandering relentlessly off topic….
please read the first post before posting…

[Anonymous]

Hi, Amanda is right we seem to have got off track a bit.
Yes, I have deep and meaningfuls myself, too much perhaps. I think this is normal as most people I meet in the Trans community seem to do it. Though when it becomes a preoccupation, as I myself have done lately, I think it can lead to problems, such as my grief that is fed by such reflection.

No, I did not hear of the term Primary and secondary until I saw your post. I have done my Bachelor of nursing and I majored in mental health at the University of Southern Qld.
I have reviewed my Merck manual, which I used in my Army Nursing career and which I also used in my rural and remote nursing. I have recently reviewed the DSM which deals with transexualism. I have also done, this week, a thorough review of the WPATH’s version seven. And guess what, no mention of primary or secondary transexualism. I would say it is just jargon that has become popular. Transsexual is seen as something that was there in one’s youth. Whether one acts on it or not is due to a lot different factors which is the individuals choice or circumstance.
Transexualism, according to my manual of DSM, is there from birth, and expressed in some way in the life of a kid.
As for grabbing a doll and never looking back: Well for some of us we were not given a choice. We grabbed our dolls and someone took them from us. Some like me look bitterly on that experience and forced living of the male gender.
However my TG Doctor told me on Wednesday, as I poured my heart out to her, said that Erika, that is to say me, has always been with me since I was a kid. One of the ways she told me to deal with my grief was to look for Erika in my past as she has ALWAYS been there, and was accommodated within the sexual identity I was forced to live. This is known as living the life of a female in stealth mode. And she is right, I can see Erika in my life at various stages in the choices I made in what I did for a living – all female roles, the clothes that I wore that were always unisex, the fussiness of how I wore my hair and the way I looked after it. She showed herself in the company I kept – women, and the topics I discussed. This has been great comfort learning about how I have lived my life as a young female without understanding why I felt as I did.
So don’t worry about primary and secondary transexualism – there is nothing in it that I have read, and my TG Doctor does not use the terms. Some transsexuals are just lucky they were born when they were, or that their circumstances allowed them to come out when they did.
I would say that this is a term that the elitist mob within our trans community use in order to make themselves feel good about themselves. In America this type of elitist attitude has caused a lot of anguish amongst some transsexuals. I even read of one case where a transsexual m- f person was never good enough in the eyes of transsexuals who thought they were a cut above all other transsexuals. This girl killed herself because she was preoccupied with feeling inferior to these transsexual elites.
All you have to do is being happy with how you express your feminity. It doesn’t matter whether you came out at 18 or later in life. Be happy with who you are, and don’t compare yourself with these elitists who think they are better than other transsexuals – it’s not worth it and will only cause you grief. Of those who express their gender dysphoria as kids, only about 23%, (I think it is even less), go on to transition.
Confidence is not in what gender you are, it is what you want to achieve. I managed to become a Clinical Nurse Specialist and an Army Officer before I came out. Gender had nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous]

Hi Erika,

“Primary” & “secondary” were commonly used terms in the 80s, to distinguish between those whose gender dysphoria was described as beginning before or after puberty.

The internet has changed so much, especially access to information. I’ve been nursing now 40 years, & in the 70s, even working in the mental health field, the information available to read was sparse to an extreme.

Same as now, (except we’re better tutored), often we learned our lines from others before seeing a doctor.

Reality is, it’s about being yourself.

Wait until the new DSM V is published. Zucker, Bailey, Blanchard (committee chairs) & others are pushing for the pathalogisation of gender non-conformity, including defining “intersex” states as being mental illnesses.

I’ll stick with the wise words of Mark ‘Jacko’ Jackson – ‘I’m an individual, & I’m OK’. or, alternatively, “my brain hurts”.

What other’s think is irrelevant. It’s about being confortable with yourself.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Christina for putting me straight about the terms, primary and secondary.