The business of going “stealth”, a touchy subject?

[Anonymous]

I think what happens is that as people settle in their true identitty that the postings here become less and less relevant to the point where they just don’t post anymore. That’s their right. Berating them in any way for a lack of participation is definitely counter productive and no, I am not saying you were doing that.
Gwen

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think what happens is that as people settle in their true identity that the postings here become less and less relevant to the point where they just don’t post anymore.

I too have noticed this trend Peta. AND, I also waver between what is now relevant in my life and what isn’t. For example, how many people who are undecided about actually buying a pair of knickers or being able to get out their front door can you encourage before it all becomes incredibly tiring.

As I am still early in transition, these things, amongst others, still have relevance to me but I have already noticed the reduction in the importance these things hold for me.

In addition, involvement in sites such as this one, does lose it’s appeal to us as our lives become more established in the life we have aspired to. These places can serve as a reminder of the journey we have travelled – and to some of us, this is a painful reminder which we would rather leave behind.

These places and the members that frequent them, have a place in our society. Some will stay and some will move on. That is not to say that we should be eternally ungrateful for the support we have received, but that some of us move away from these places and take on a different role in society.

We should be grateful to those who remain to encourage and advise those who continue to follow, but not to cry foul on those who cannot.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Quote:

I think what happens is that as people settle in their true identity that the postings here become less and less relevant to the point where they just don’t post anymore.

I don’t post much anymore, but that’s nothing to do with being stealth or not and everything to do with how busy I am and how often I get foot in mouth disease (I do forget it’s polite to take one foot out before putting the other in!)

As for me, well whether I’m stealth in real life or not, I don’t care, I’m living life to the full and getting on with it

Here’s a recent blog entry of mine and a new special friend, along with photos since my first ops and I’ll let you decide.

http://www.michellesullivan.org/blog/538

Take care all,

Shells

[Anonymous]

Hi Peta

I guess some of this is directed at me as well. I use to do a lot of posts on this site and I always encouraged girls to step out and be who they are. I still beleive this but the younger girls that are going through their transition are now shining and have taken over my role with answers and advice just like I use to.

Peta you are the one thats was shining so bright and I did not see the point to post as you covered all my points. This is what it is all about, we have been here before and have pushed a path to make it easier for the next lot of girls to move forward too. You now have the experance and knollage to take on all those questions, you will now have other girls look up to you just as we did.

In my life I am living the role as just been a girl, I dont see myself as TG anymore as that is part of my past. I always just wanted to be a girl and now I am, so I dont go and tell the world who I am, I just try to live my life as I can.

My past will always come back and give me greif, my close freinds know as I do not lie, but I have enough problems in normal life without making it more complex.I am a gay girl living in a town that is a bit redneck and a lot of other gay girls dont step out, so that part of my life is already a chanlenge.

In my past I have been beatenup, stabbed and shot at for who I am, in those times we have made it more acceptable for the new girls comming through now. I have done my time waving the flag as to say, now it my time to have a normal life as a normal girl. I am tired and less tollerant to take the bullshit that use to roll off my shoulders, I did my time but I still get the odd wanker out there that makes my life hell.

My now ex girl friend even felt the pressure of defeding me. She lost a lot of her friends as they would hassle her what it was like to sleep with a guy, when most of them had never met me, its just something they can use to hurt her with as I was with her and her ex was stiring all her other friends once they found out. She has defended me whe whole way, she has seen how people treat me at the markets sometimes, like been refered to as an it. She has lost some new freinds over the fact that she defended me. All this was just too much and was one of the nails that ended our relationship.

So yes I have pulled back and I just want to be me now, just a girl with a past. In saying that I still read most of the posts from here, but the older issues are been covered by the girls that are now shining behind me, its their time to tell the next group of girls the way. The girls that have just got out for the first time are now telling the girl that have not done that how good it is and their experancings, we are all growing and move up throught the ranks as said.

I offered to do work more with TS girls via the govt appointed groups, but my location is too far away, so I was turned down. The govt open doors in Bundy was closed down as they said it was lack of interest, more like too many too scared to come out and those that do head to brisbane to be one in the crowd. They really did not try hard but they are the professionals. lol

My issues are now life issues and I talk about them in other sites like the lesbian sites that I meet my freinds through. These issues have nothing to do with TR issues so I dont post them here.

So I hope that explaines why I am not as active here, why I have not deleted my profile, but if anyone here thinks that I dont belong here anymore then I will leave if asked.

xxx

Kelly Jones

[Anonymous]

Hi Peta,

I can relate to what has been answered above.

Myself I feel many of the posts are being posted are of less relevance to me now. The days of of going out “dressed”and it being scary/exciting are truly way way way in my past. I am now just another woman!

I have a goal that I am saving up for that will come to reality at the end of this year, so I am not attending many of the TR events this year, so the reasons for not attending are mostly financial. I do not want to forget my friends from TR, I do hope my friends from here will keep in contact with me including yourself.

As far as photos, I don’t post photos of myself any more, the photos thing is of no relevance to me and I prefer to be discrete on line. But yes I was one who removed her profile photo. I do post occasionally when I feel I have something to say that may help someone, or if I feel its something worthwhile. I do log in to TR almost everyday.

I hope to catch up sometime soon Peta.

Anthea xx

[Adrian]

I think (correct me if I’m wrong Peta) that Peta’s post was broader in context than just noting that post-transition people don’t participate in these forums. She was also talking about stealth in the broader sense where people divorce themselves from the community and friends they have built up during their journey.

Personally, I have never been surprised that many who live as a woman in society find little of interest in these forums and less to post about. The content here is far more tuned to the journey than the destination.

But what I have a much stronger opinion about is the choice to purge one’s life at some point on the journey, throwing away friends, past experiences and most of the essence of “who you were”, in the hope that on a blank canvas you can redraw a new “who you are”. This is the Stealth that I openly tell people I have concerns about.

Firstly, can I qualify the opinion I have, by saying that “Stealth” is like “Life after Death”. Because, by definition, I loose all contact with those who have chosen to wipe me out of their life, I can’t ever have an objective opinion as to whether the strategy works. By definition, anyone who can answer my questions is not in ultimate stealth.

But as a “life after death” strategy I’m convinced that total stealth is pretty high risk – except perhaps for those who are in their teens or early twenties.
The rest of us have too much “life” that we have lived, and whether we have had pleasant or bad experiences in that life, it has shaped who we are.
I have an issue with what I see as a very ‘male’ characteristic to deal with problems by taking action – the rush to any type of surgery – and also this quick fix by throwing away past life.
I see it is just that – a quick fix – which must leave a big hole in ones psychological makeup having thrown out just about everything that underpins your personality and self concept of “who I am”.

So I want to talk people out of the idea that Stealth is an easy fix…
– Because many of your experiences are shared, and cannot be erased unilaterally
– Because good friends are hard to come by, and rejecting friends because they are “T” is just the sort of discrimination we all complain about in society!
– Because not having a past you can talk about will always be a void in your life – you need to be able to see it as a journey you are proud of, not a time to be forgotten.

All that said, I guess there are times when the past is so bad that a clean slate is perceived as the only viable way forward. But surely that should be a decision of last resort.

[bee]

Re Stealth

I guess there are various degrees of stealth. The way I approach things is that I assume everyone knows. But I don’t go out of my way to announce to people about my background – I feel it is irreverent. In fact with my non-trans friends the trans topic has never come up – if it did I would happily discuss it though, but I am just as happy not to. As other members have mentioned there are much more interesting (to me) things to talk to people with. ((is this the correct English?  ))

I think it just shows how some parts of society have moved on – I mean if there is someone who is gay or lesbian or has a disability – few people would open a conversation about these things – it just is – and people I feel just want to get to know you as a person.

I do try and keep in contact with TR and am often in the Chat room, however I don’t attend the weekly t-girl café nights here in Brisbane for some years now – as others have mentioned – talking yet again about hormones etc. can become a bit repetitive.

I know some people prefer to go out of their way to announce to others that they are trans – and of course that is their choice. But when I am around such people it does ‘out’ me by association. I’d much be rather known as “Oh that’s bambi – you know she take photos”, , rather than “Oh that’s bambi-the trannie!”.

I was once at the Brisbane t-girl café (my last time there actually) and a woman came up to the table of 5 and said “Oh I just wanted to come up and say how lovely you all look”. The others at the table were very complemented by this – but for me it was as if she was saying “I think you all look lovely – as men trying to be women”, so it was not a complement for me. By association I was ‘outed’.

I have a friend in New Zealand, who is trans, and who is openly trans with her friends. She has told all her friends about me. So I hope readers can understand why I feel reluctant to go and meet them as I have been pre-outed. They know me as a trannie rather than as a person.
So you can see why some people choose to perhaps have more non- trans friends – just so the trans topic doesn’t come up.

However talking about one’s life – I was recently in Cairns and I visited a restaurant that I knew the owner for many many years pre transition. He was there again, but I couldn’t say hello, and of course he didn’t recognize me. So not being able to do that was sad for me, it is definitely a transition. Of course it was my choice not to take him aside for 30 minutes and try to explain things. So the choices we choose (mine of not announcing to the world I am trans) sometimes have some not so nice side effects.

We are not trans by choice we just have the ‘incorrect’ bodies which some of us choose to modify. We are who we are.

[Anonymous]

I agree with you on so many points Bambi. So, to add to my previous posting, I have begun to notice many of the issues that you have highlighted.

On the subject of stealth itself, as you know, I believe I have been able to live my life as it should have always been for a while now.

The subject of meeting people I used to know and haven’t seen for a long while cropped up in a store recently. I bumped into an old friend at the shops, greeted her in that “I haven’t seen you for ages” manner, only to be met with a completely puzzled expression. It was then that it dawned on me that I had inadvertently created a very embarrassing moment for both of us. Not wishing to be “outed” in a very public place, I explained to her that I must have been mistaken and apologised for making the mistake. I ended up feeling very shaken by the whole situation and was yet another situation I hadn’t prepared myself for.

The other issue I also have now regarding going stealth or not, is that I am “sort of” in a relationship. At first I was concerned that he could accept that I was pre-op and would be 1) able to see past the “bits” I have at the moment and 2) not fall into that trap that he is looking for a pre-op Tgirl and would lose interest post-op.

I think we have those issues sorted, but now I am faced with the issue of meeting his friends! The first of his friends I met were very supportive and caring people and he made a point of telling them I was a pre-op Tgirl before I actually got to meet them. I found this to be a little intrusive on what I see as a very personal issue. So we had a little “discussion” on what is being said and to who.

Then, the next group I met, were not told at any point what my situation is. I was accepted as a woman by them and everything went well, if not a little awkward because I had worked with them both about 20 years ago (small world). I also felt very restricted because all the usual points of conversation we could have had were either linked to my past or to my transition. I had to double think everything I could have talked about BECAUSE I did not want to give the game away.

Since then, I have been invited to a couple of get togethers with people he see’s less of, but with (what he see’s as) stronger issues regarding “proper” behaviours. The first I felt more than a little uncomfortable with and the second turned into a non event (he decided at the last minute that we weren’t going). I am beginning to feel he is a little worried about what they are going to think of him, rather than what they are going to think of me. I am not so sure that he could handle it if they were to argue that he must be gay!

Obviously, in every relationship there are a lot of dynamics going on and in our situation, things are pretty complicated. Everyone in my life knows my history, but it is only now that I am really having to deal with really sensitive issues regarding personal relationships. Unfortunately, even many of my friends see my interest in men as being a “gay” (no offense to gay people ok) interest, where I see it as a “normal” (albeit complicated) heterosexual interest.

So, to go stealth or not to go stealth? I am not prepared to lose my history completely, but I also want to be accepted unconditionally for the woman I am. Am I forever to be branded a “Tranny” simply because of who I am (and it IS argued that that is what I am – so just deal with it sunshine). The people who know me and love me accept the journey I am on – but I am still the woman who used to be a guy, accepted as a woman but with conditions. I get tired of “a real girl wouldn’t do that” or “that’s the bloke coming out in you”. If they didn’t know my past, I wouldn’t get those comments.

It’s so complicated……………………………………..

PS – Virginia – I am going to upset the applecart here – quote from the next posting “also, politically, doesn’t stealth support the theory that gender is binary?” Why would we spend thousands and thousands of hard earned dollars to achieve what we need to if it wasn’t? LOL We would be happy enough to just chuck on a dress and some makeup if we were happy to just be some sort of in-betweener. We accept the labels we are assigned because we have no choice in the matter. BTW – This is not a criticism of those who choose to live this way – just a viewpoint from someone who doesn’t.

PPS – In my early stages I had a tgirl friend who had issues going shopping with me because my mere presence gave her away. To anyone struggling with “pass-ability” anything that adds to the “tell” load will usually be avoided – and sometimes that includes guilt by association. My apologies.

[Anonymous]

peta – in case you have forgotten – i started a thread about this a while ago:

http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F156/3344-344

Moderator

Quote:

Don’t worry V – that’s why this topic was moved to the same forum…and a merge will happen when the thread goes passive again!!!

some further thoughts. since that thread, (i think) barack obama appointed amanda simpson to a high profile position in the us government administration, and in the last mid term elections in the usa, some openly transsexual women were voted into public office, which begs the question as to why you would go stealth. chaz bono has openly come out.

i guess some may feel that life is a lot less hassle if they are not confronted with the “trans” part of their lives (as some have posted here mention). i guess some people in this category may rely on “passability”. on that, i would comment that non-disclosure of your past may make living in the present just as complex as someone who was in the closet. the stresses that one faces in having a cleanly compartmentalized lifestyle is, logically, going to be more difficult than one where there is no hiding anything.

as for “passability”, yes, we can augment our bodies biochemically, and through surgery. but there is no surgery for voice, height, or foot/hand/shoulder/hip/buttock size. Oh, and did I mention prostrate? there is no biochemical treatment to give us a fully female upbringing yielding a complete female emotional and intellectual state or insight. this may be almost achievable if transition were to begin well before puberty, i surmise, however, for most, this will not be the case.

then there is the past. it’s kind of like not showing a prospective employer your full career history. how is the employment relationship going to work? so, i suppose one of the reasons for going stealth is that you will be treated like a woman/man and avoid the negative aspects of discrimination, vilification etc associated with being a transperson.

politically, by doing this, is this not perpetuating these types of behaviours, or at the very least, doing nothing to change them? also, politically, doesn’t stealth support the theory that gender is binary? i think, given nature and the complexity of the human body (just the x and y chromosomes (the gender chromosomes) are made up of over 2000 different genes) the likelihood of only two gender types being the normal state of existence for homo sapiens is low. sort of like the odds of other life in the universe.

and regarding friendships, like amanda says, isn’t rejecting your transperson friends just another form of transphobia? i would have thought that friendships are based on mutual emotional and intellectual compatibility. do you reject a person because they are heterosexual, or african american, or have diabetes or have one arm? is the diabetic likely to have such different emotional and intellectual attributes that they would, on those bases alone, not be of friendship material?

as you can see, there are some arguments for not going stealth. but that doesn’t mean you can’t live your life without your heart on your sleeve. as some have already posted, perhaps you can mention your past to people who need to know. but then that would be imperfect stealth. maybe that’s the way to go, and in any event, everyone has their own values and sensibilities. so to get back to peta’s question. if some choose to live their lives in perfect stealth (and the points i raise above may support the proposition that perfect stealth is a myth), then that’s the way it is. others will choose imperfect stealth. and others will live openly and proudly with their transness.

i’m no expert, and these are just my thoughts. personally, like shells, i like to just get on with my life and let others live theirs. Just as much as i would resist people telling me what to do, i would like to think i would resist telling others what to do (well, murder, rape, and transphobia are some things i couldn’t condone) – everyone has a choice.

lastly, anyone reading this thinking i am having a go at them, please, this is definitely not my intention. i am just raising some issues and putting forward some arguments. i would never say anyone’s lifestyle choice was wrong, as long as no one is being harmed.

[Anonymous]

Hi , Peta_A

I can not do stealth it wont ever happen , & tho it may be strange to many trans I dont evern try to pass That to us is a none event & whats the point ,
One reason is im so well known & people know my back ground & if not they soon do.
One other detail for me is i dont have much to do with other trans theres none here , & its 3 hours & 1 1 / 2 hours to find them. north & south.

So im resigned to the fact i only have my friends here & over seas on the many forums im on & yea we get on pretty good ,
When i can get back over to your land Ill be able to meet up again & spend time with yous .
The other detail is my life is family & Jos of cause tho we for now & how ever long will remain apart .

So my interests are the womens groups & the other groups im involved with really its just life where we are. . its cool & its nice ,

Im accepted & where ever i go in N Z im known by others & i meet & greet many people ,

Ill stay with & on our forums for as long as im invited to i dont take it for granted .
Of cause as most know iv not writen much because i dont think i have much to offer because its not trans related,

What am i trying to say iv not moved away from those i know we still live in the same house well no dought for a while any way, So im finding it hard to talk about trans details in a way most here do ,
for me its about home life our grown up kids & OUR grand kids & groups im in ,
Was there really much change for me & family apart from my clothes , not really i still do much the same tho i have met many more friends .

Of cause what does change in some ways like when i was over in syd it was all about trans things so yea & im happy with that.

So any way thought id just say this so you know im still around just not saying to much thats all.. hope yous understand where im coming from…

hope ya dont mind,

…noeleena…

[Anonymous]

The reason I limit my interactions with the trans community is because I get such a hard time from other transsexuals.
I have another transsexual currently trying to bully me on a different trans email forum because they made a pass at me and I didn’t reciprocate. So that person now has rejection anger and is trying to target me in a very bullying and manipulative manner in order to make themself feel better. And to paint me as some kind of bad person.
I know that if I turn up at a trans function I’m going to have to run the gauntlet of running into that person. And I know that person can’t stop themselelf from bullying.
If i run into that person in Katoomba or at one of the cafe/resturant nights, and they act out, I won’t come back.

The same person also told me that they are lying to and manipulating their psych.
And I have to admit thiat transsexual person is very charming, and I would think most people would think that she isn’t capable of her behaviour.

This is the second transsexual person in the last 12 months to behave like this.
The first person has a live in long time pre transition girlfriend and wanted me on the side.

I’ve had years of this type of behaviour. And i’m not pretty or desireable.

I went overseas for Facial Feminization Surgery, and ended up getting bullied by a different bunch of transsexual people becuase I got FFS before i had SRS.
It was a case of “I am more genuine than thou” Trying to devalue.
I dislike it when transsexuals project that devaluation at cross dressers. So for any cross dresser who has a transsexual perason try and devalue them just remember that they try and devalue other transsexuals too. And don’t take it personally.

On other occassions I’ve had to deal with people just wanting to be self absorbed about their transition. The entire subject of conversation is about them. Narcisism.

I’ve even been sexually assaulted by two different trans persons.
I used to take all of this on board.
For a while there I thought that I must have been a bad person that somehow was too stupid to realise what I was doing or saying in these interactions to find myself on the recieving end of that behaviour.
I eventually ended up in counselling over the bullying. Eventually I realised that there are alot of transsexual peopl out there who have problems that get misdirected at others. And to lighten up on myself and not take the behaviour on board.
I began to realise that I didn’t deserve the behaviour that was being directed at me. And that the best way to avoid the bullying was to avoid them.

I’d love to be a part of the trans community.
But I think alot of them don’t like themselves.

I like the cross dressers that I’ve met. I get on with 99 percent of them.
I also know that alot of CD folk may be very supportive, but can’t relate to some of the long term or subtle issues. But as a general rule cross dressers are pleasant to be around and fun.
I still want to be part of the transsexual community
But I’m also super weary.
So the CD community is a window to the trans community without actually putting myself in the danger of having to deal exclusively with transsexuals.
And certainly there are other transsexuals who enter the trans cmmunity from CD space.
So the CD community is a safe window to the transsexual community without all the drama.

At the moment I’m working toward my SRS. The T.S. and CD friends that I do have are very special to me and I’d do ANTHING for them. They are my friends, and I’m very happy for their friendship and commeraderie.
But yes.. as a general rule I’m weary of other transsexuals.
CD’s are much easier to get on with.
Thats my take, anyhow.
Other people might have a completely different experience to mine.

I’m considering leaving other trans forums.
I already have close to no interactions with the transseual community.
I feel a bit more connected with this forum because I’ve had good experiences with it and with other participants.
But I’m also weary at the moment. And yes still lurking.

Claire

[Anonymous]

Hi Claire,

Oh dear im so sorry youv had to go through this i understand & most if not all youv said is correct & right iv had a few things leveled at myself so yes know it well & thats here in N Z..

You know you can allways email me

noeleena@clear.net.nz

As a woman i get on quite well in & around where i live & in many groups both women & mixed & those who dress have been very accepting of who i am ,

For some reason there is a lack of accepting in the trans community here
& i found its better to step back , im not trying to put down others its just you know when your not wonted ,or being miss alined so your doing the right thing
you know im here when you need me .

Hugs xxx

…noeleena…

[Anonymous]

Stealth is a myth and it’s something that never crosses my mind.

I agree with Bambi, I assume everyone I meet knows however I don’t advertise the fact or bring it up in conversation.

I also agree with other comments that things on here are less relevant now as they use to be. For me personally, I only really post on subjects that relate to the importance of recognition of TR as an entity in the greater community. I will never stop advertising the fact that TR has an important role to play in the community!

Peta, why do people leave?

Basically it’s what Claire said, it comes down to relationships with people. It’s got nothing to do with CD, TV, TG, TS, stealth or any other BS words/labels.

It’s things like jealousy and malicious gossip that really turns you off, or if you just don’t fit into the mould. Perhaps you’re going through a difficult period in your life, I guess it’s then you know who your true friends are and who really cares about your well being.

Noeleena said…
“For some reason there is a lack of accepting in the trans community here & i found its better to step back , i’m not trying to put down others it’s just you know when you’re not wanted”

[Anonymous]

Perhaps when one first identifies with the Trans community , the relief of being true to oneself causes a euphoria and need to self disclose . The way some new Tr members seem to need to comment on every subject in the forums is testament to that ( I was/ am guilty of this at times). The fact that others are Trans is not enough reason to sustain interest in every facet of their lives and interests and so people may drop off on commenting in time.
I do agree though, that the change of a life to stealth is an emotionally unhealthy one and is just another closet. We , as humans , need Community, best is the one you live in and second is the one you ” think in ” ( eg Trans) IMO.

Trans people are no more interesting or “nice” than anyone else IMO , it depends on the individual just as with everyone else. Anthea’s experience bears this out.

I love birds but the bird people I know are generally not my kind of people and though we may chat about interests in common when we meet, and give each other advice and aid when it is requested, any deeper contact is not of interest to me. Only with some individuals would one bother. So it is with Trans folk.

[Anonymous]

Personally stealth will never work for me. I transitioned at work, I transitioned in my local communities, everyone knows anyway so there’s no point really. And I don’t want to live another lie as I see it. That’s my decision.
Not everyone feels the way I do. I know of two transwomen who are stealth. They look so good even I can’t tell of their past looking at them. Few people know of their trans past. Why would they do this?
Well the payoff is they are treated as women, just women. Not almost a woman, not a third sex, not someone to be tolerated, just women. They both report that the community treats them entirely differently than they treat an ‘out’ trans woman. They are invited to womens groups unreservedly, they are able to take their place in society without having to constantly fight for their right to be there, they don’t get the looks, the stares, that OMG reaction I’m sure many people here will be familiar with.
Sexually (when available) they are approached ‘normally’ and not treated either as an unapproachable freak or a guy with a pussy which has tended to be my recent experiences.
I mean who wouldn’t want this. I would! I do!
They are willing to pay the price for this which is fundamentally to hide their past. Or to put it another way to go undercover again. It’s their choice and their right.
I don’t think criticising them for this is productive. They are not on these forums to listen anyway.