Toilet training

[Elizabeth]

I think we have all been in that situation at some time or another and wondered what are our legal rights if sprung!
Going for a wee isn’t a crime, where you go maybe. Trannies in the ladies? If no one bothers you and there are no complaints, that’s it.
Should there be a complaint and is likely to cause a ‘breach of the peace’ then you could be arrested, necessary to nip the breach of the peace in the bud. It would be unlikely to end up in court. You could have an official caution.
I guess the best solution is to proceed with caution, not a wonderful piece of advice but the best I can think of. I often use the ‘ladies’ when necessary, holding my head up high and looking like I own the toilet. Most folk couldn’t give a damn as long as you don’t inpinge on their space.
The only time I had problems using the ladies loo was as a very young child, taken in by my mum and a woman complained that a five year old boy should have used them mens’ loo. At the time I felt as though the world was about to collapse around my ears and felt awful. There are some nit picking, bloody awful folk out there.
Use the loo and be careful. Remember McDonalds recently in the US!

Hugs,
Liz

[Adrian]

I’ve moved this article to a serious/moderated forum – because it is a question I’m surprised to find has not ever been specifically addressed in these forums.

Many years ago I attended a talk given by a police officer to Seahorse NSW. And as a result wrote a “position paper” for the members which I (and I suspect Seahorse) have now lost.

From memory, back then, the legal position was that the law was a grey area. But on balance you were slightly safer using the ladies, as a police officer could arrest you for soliciting in the Gents. I remember in those days the advice was, if in doubt, look for a disabled toilet. But of course I’ve never felt that I have a disability so that did seem a bit wrong.

Times have changed since then I think. There is growing awareness in society and government of intersex and the challenge this presents to the male/female dichotomy. The relationship between intersex and transgender is now receiving greater attention – and I think provides a basis for to respond if you are ever challenged about using the “wrong” toilet.

So, practically, where does that leave us?

Well, firstly, I would suggest that you need to ask how likely your gender expression is to cause offense or discomfort to others. If your chosen expression is leather hotpants, 4″ heels and a beard – then I think the “look for a disabled toilet” is your best option.

Similarly, if you find the thought of visiting the ladies sexually exciting rather than physically relieving, then too you may be best advised to go elsewhere.

But for the vast majority of us, the best option is to be discreet, find a quiet toilets without a queue through the door, and get on with what has to be done. Resist the temptation to talk to others in your bass tones, use the facilities in the same way as others use them, and if you feel someone else is disturbed by your presence don’t hang about.

As with just about everything you do in public, the thing that will carry you through is not looks but confidence. And confidence takes time to build up. Just work at it slowly.

I’ve been out and about in Sydney a long time and I’ve only ever heard of one toilet related drama. No bashing-up in MacDonalds, or arrests and a night in a prison cell. Just someone being thrown out of a private club for causing a stir in the ladies.

[Anonymous]

Can’t be 100% sure but I’m sure I’ve heard from one of the girls that in NSW a transgendered lady can use the Ladies legally.

On a lighter note, I remember going to concerts at the old Sydney Show Ground and girls would crash the boys toilets without anything ontoward happening.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Can’t be 100% sure but I’m sure I’ve heard from one of the girls that in NSW a transgendered lady can use the Ladies legally.

You are correct (and it is not ‘legally recognised’ yet in all states so mileage may vary)… That said, just remember what constitutes ‘transgendered’ (legally) .. if you are just cross dressing, you are not (in law) considered transgendered. Be discrete is the answer there (disabled toilets, where there are no queues etc) … that said, the advice before ‘look as if you own the place’ is probably the best.. Though I would have put it, “hold yourself as if you know your rights and your right is to be there.” You will not be challenged even in places/countries where laws do not give you the right (my experience.)

If on the other hand you are on hormones and are under the care of a GP/Endo for transgenderism, then you are entitled in most places to use the ladies even if the law does not specifically say it (because if nothing else you answer with this is the 12 months of my “real life experience” I am required to undertake before surgery to become legally female… That said nothing stopping for you saying that even if you are a crossdresser, just you might be asked to back it up.)

Me I don’t have any problem in any country for the toilets now, I have my passport, ID card and driving license showing ‘female’ so I am covered by the law in all states as well as most of the rest of the world. (That said in the USA just outside of San Francisco, I recently (08/2011) had an issue with the police where I was arrested and later released without charge, but during the time they ignored my passport, ID card and driving license stating ‘female’ and treated me as male… complaints were issued but consular staff (British and Australian) as well as my lawyers etc.)

Mhix

[Anonymous]

NSW and the ACT have quite good protection for transgender people using the appropriate toilet, and reasonably broad definitions as to who is considered transgender.

From http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/pages/adb_transgender_guidelines#the

Quote:

What is the situation with toilets and change rooms?

A transgender person who has a birth certificate or recognition certificate in their preferred gender must be treated at all times as their new gender. It would be discrimination and against the law to do anything else.

All other transgender people should be allowed to use the toilets or change rooms of their choice unless this would be “unreasonable in all the circumstances”.

From http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/vwPrint1/adb_transgender#Who

Quote:

Who is counted as transgender under anti-discrimination law?

You are counted as transgender under NSW anti-discrimination law if any of the following apply to you:
[ul]you identify as the opposite gender to your birth gender and live as your identified gender;
you identify as the opposite gender to your birth gender and are seeking to live as your identified gender;
you are intersexual (born with indeterminate sex, for example with sexual parts of both sexes), and you live as your identified gender;
you are thought of as a transgender person.[/ul]

There are more details on those and other TG rights in NSW on that page.

FWIW, I’ve been using ladies toilets for many years now, even though I don’t “pass”. When I first started living as Julie at the end of 2008, I initially used the men’s room, but I found that I was making men so uncomfortable that I started using the ladies. I’ve never once had any issue using the ladies. As others have said, just be confident and respectful, and behave the same as all the other people in the restroom.

[Anonymous]

Thanx Ladies’

All that info does put my mind at rest; I did’nt feel at any stage any sort of sexual buzz from my experience, …rather that it was the most natural thing to do, I found the washroom rather crowded but still kept my head down and just washed my hands afterwards, did I feel confident?? Well, …yes. I honestly felt that I somehow belonged,…that I was in someway relating to and with all those other women present. There seemed to be too many children present distracting the mums anyway, …

Now, …how does the law apply in Victoria ??

[bee]

I think this issue is under state law – so it may vary from state to state. In the State of Queensland, I understand people MUST use the toilet of the gender they are presenting as. This is for personal safety and (as I understand) is due to the work of http://atsaq.com

This is for public toilets. Toilets in private shopping centers may follow this or not.

As Amanda has mentioned – go in do your business wash your hands and go out I suggest. Don’t linger as that could be mistaken for other purposes.

((Although the recent Libra TV Commercial suggests people are more open minded *smiles* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmKTnKFzKlU ))

Having said that I had no issues (even in the early stages), and yes I used a toilet at McDonalds in Sydney pre-transision in Aug 2006 *smiles*.

[Anonymous]

Every year, in the USA, there is an event called “Diva Las Vegas”, which is essentially a get together of a cross dressing community in Las Vegas (obviously). Some of you may wish to attend one – they are fun, with lots of events and get togethers (day and evening) – sort of like a Transformal weekend, but a week long in duration and with lots more activities and venues (golf, even).

http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/

Toilet training has always been an important item on the agenda and there have been a few “mishaps” in the past. The organiser has set out some thoughts on toilet use, that some may find useful:

Quote:

My personal suggestion to you is the following:

Don’t ask.
Don’t tell.
Don’t be obvious — fly under the radar.

Be sure to go immediately before you leave your home or hotel room.

Are there convenient facilities that are more discreet? If so, use them.

Do you REALLY have to go? If not, don’t!

If you must go, go alone, get in, do your business, and get out, quickly and quietly.

Be very very quiet. Avoid making any splashing, ploping, groaning, or flatulent noises.

If you have to make any boob adjustments or private part adjustments, make them in the privacy of your stall, not in the common areas.

Do not linger or loiter. Use the mirror, if necessary, to check yourself and touch up, but do it quickly and get out.

Unless your voice is totally passable, say nothing! Use head gestures if you need to communicate.

NEVER NEVER EVER go to the ladies room in groups! Using a public ladies room in a group is a very high risk activity and must be avoided. Doing so shows your disregard and inconsideration for those who wish to blend and wish to use public facilities properly.

It is best to avoid any situation where it may be obvious to onlookers that you are using a restroom they don’t think you should be using. For example, if there is a crowd of many TG people in a restaurant or casino, and that group has attracted the attention of mainstream people in the area, do not obviously enter the nearest ladies room. Seek facilities in a portion of the property, or a nearby property, where the group is not so obvious.
If there is a line:

Sometimes you may encounter a line in a public ladies room. This sometimes happens in the restrooms in the vicinity of a showroom just after a show has concluded, but it may happen anywhere that the demand (for stalls) exceeds the supply of them.

The correct etiquette is to join the line at the rear and to quietly wait until it is your turn to proceed to the next open stall.

If you are uneasy doing this, simply turn around, exit, and look for other facilities. In a restroom with a long line, you will most certainly see others doing this as well.
If there is an attendant:

Occasionally you may run into a public ladies room in which there is an attendant. This used to be far more common, but some of these people still exist today.

They are there to assist patrons with various things, and yes, they do earn a considerable portion of thier income from tips. They will usually have quite a stash of supplies of various types. Sometimes their duties include clean-up and housekeeping of the ladies room.

My personal suggestion to you is that unless your mannerisms and voice are 100% passable, avoid interacting with these attendants.

Every so often you may run into at attendant who is helpful to the point of being pushy. If she asks you if you need anything, simply shake your head no. Occasionally, sometimes they will do such things as hand you a towel without being asked. (Some of them *DO* expect a tip for things like this, but IMAO they are pushing it if they do.) If this happens, simply smile and take the towel. It’s up to you if you wish to tip.

In this day and age, however, most attendants will not approach you unless you indicate you need something.

If an attendant does perform some kind of a service for you, such as finding you a safety pin, yes, a tip may be appropriate.
If you are confronted:

Be a lady! Quickly and briefly apologize and GET OUT! Don’t explain anything. The less said, the better. Find other facilities.

Of course, this advice is tailored more for the Diva Las Vegas event as opposed to one off circumstances of the type that Jannine is referring to. Personally, from observation at these types of events and in general, the gravest behaviour most likely to attract attention is to use the stall in the toilets without closing the door and doing number ones standing up. I have actually witnessed this, and this is a sure fire way to attract negative attention. If you are in a licensed premises, a highly likely outcome may be that you get ejected (irrespective of the laws and rights, and to be honest, are you really going to take them up after you behave like that?). Perhaps I’m a prude, but if you want to be “ladylike”, be “ladylike”.

[Anonymous]

My advice is not to get into any sort of ” bidding war ” with female patrons and at the first sign of a tampon…make a run for it……remember the fuss on Facebook last time that sort of thing happened??

[Anonymous]

I have a story on the lighter side of this subject i was about ready to trainsition and i went to the mens toilet i had a womens tee on and a pair of jeans and thongs and as i went through the door and in to the toilet a guy past me at the door entry he looked at me as if to say what are you doing in here and i felt like he was perving on me I guees i looked more femenine than what i thought i did i looked at my self in the mirror and decided i would no longer be going to the mens toilets and i started dressing to my prefered gender and started going to the womens toilet and have had no hassles since

Chrissie xoxo

[Anonymous]

I understand in NSW there is no law against it. There are laws against discrimination on the basis of being trasgender. I guess that’s still grey enough…

I’ve been harrassed at a pub after using the mens – pretty scary – so decided to use the disabled wherever possible. A while ago, a nightmare came true. I used a disabled toilet in a mall before a dental appointment and cleaned my teeth, which took a while. When I left, an old lady in a walking frame wearing a death-stare for me slowly got to her feet and trudged to the toilet. I still feel aweful about it.

So, maybe no easy answer all the time. I look forward to the day – soon I hope, when I just use the female toilets in all circumstances

[Anonymous]

Sarah – having met you in real life, I am very surprised you do not use female toilets exclusively. I am sure you would never have any issues whatsoever. In fact, I am surprised you even contemplate using male toilets, and not surprised if you get negative attention when using the men’s facilities in pubs.

As for using disabled toilets – I’m not sure there is a law in any state that specifies that only people with mobile disabilities are able to use them. Is a person who has had a colostomy prohibited from using a disabled toilet? How do you define “disabled”? I understand that the concept of “disability” is fairly wide – much wider that something like “someone in a wheel chair” or “someone using a walking frame”:

Quote:

It is generally against the law in NSW to treat you unfairly or harass you because you have a disability. This includes the following:
a disability you have now;
a disability that someone thinks you have now, whether or not you actually have it;
a disability you had in the past, or that someone thinks you had in the past;
a disability that you will get in the future, or that someone thinks you might get in the future;
a disability that any of your relatives, friend, work colleagues or associates has now, had in the past or will get in the future; and
a disability that someone thinks any of your relatives, friends, work colleagues or associates has now, had in the past or might get in the future.

Anti-discrimination law covers a wide range of disabilities and health problems. These include the following:

physical disabilities such as paraplegia, cerebral palsy, vision impairment or hemiplegia following a stroke;
a disease that makes a part of the body or brain work differently, such as arthritis, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, diabetes, epilepsy or cancer;
a mental illness or psychiatric disability, such as anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or an eating disorder;
a behavioural disorder such as ADHD or Asperger’s Syndrome;
an intellectual disability such as Down syndrome;
a learning or cognitive disability such as dyslexia;
a change to a part of the body or brain after an accident or surgery;
a different formation of a body part, for example a missing or short limb; and
a virus or bacteria in the body that could cause disease or illness, such as hepatitis or HIV.

Some disabilities may fall into more than one of these categories.

Could there be an argument that being gender variant is a form of disability in that the physical and emotional differences from the gender norm are sufficient to grant gender variant people affirmative rights – rights that give them protection over an above those who do not have to deal with these additional burdens? It seems that under the American Psychiatric Association model of diagnosis, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), some (many?) forms of gender variance can constitute a form of “mental disorder” (personally, I don’t agree with this view of life, but then “de-pathologising” the trans existence presents other legal, social and political issues).

One of the qualifying criteria under this model for diagnosis of a disorder is “Significant clinical discomfort or impairment at work, social situations, or other important life areas”. So does the fact that the discomfort or impairment encountered when using male or female toilets sufficiently qualify a person to be deemed suffering from a disorder?

On that basis alone, there may well be significant grounds as to why gender variant people should be allowed to use disabled facilities.

I wouldn’t feel guilty in making a person with a walking frame wait to use an disabled toilet if you have a genuine reason for using the disabled toilet, but that’s me. Many disabilities are invisible – you cannot always tell someone is disabled from visual appearances. On that basis, I don’t think anyone has a right to make judgement outside a disabled toilet simply on the grounds of appearance alone and anyone who does so, irrespective of their disability, is merely expressing their ignorance.

The case is different for the use of disabled car parking, as there are certain criteria that must be met in order to obtain a mobility parking permit, so the comparison will be different. Obviously the disability required for the issue of a mobility permit will have to impact on a person’s capacity to drive a motor vehicle:

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/usingroads/mobilityparking/mobilityhowtoapply/mobility_crd.html

[Anonymous]

I have worked in the disability area for 17 years now and the range of disability and the ability to function has been so wide spread that any notion of who was entitled to use a certain toilet is farcical. A person with agoraphobia for example, who may be physically full functioning, may feel more comfortable using a disabled toilet due to its extra space . They are basically designed to accept a wheelchair not for any notion of someones degree of mental disability.

I say use the one you feel most comfortable with and hang the opinions of others. As long as one acts responsibly and keeps safe ,we are just talking about a wee after all!

[Anonymous]

First time I ever appeared in public was at Seahorse 2008. My nerves were on edge and I was petrified. I needed to visit the bathroom and Noeleena took me to the ladies. I was unsure of what would transpire, but I survived. I went to a Carousel meeting in Adelaide last year and was caught short. The hotel is TG friendly and I had no compunction (thanks Sandy for some vital tips) in using the ladies. Last time I went out I was on my own and needed the bathroom, I used the ladies. Again it was at a TG friendly hotel.

It does, however, make you cognisant of your appearance, a ‘TG,CD etc’ should use the bathroom most according with their appearance.

[Anonymous]

I’ve been on hormones for 7+ years, but I haven’t fully transitioned, mainly due to family issues (I’m married with young kids). I have a personal rule: If I’m out with my family, the first choice is the Disabled loo. Then the Male loo. If I’m by myself, with no family accompanying, I’ll use either the Disabled or Female loo, depending on my level of confidence at the time, and whether the Disabled loo is occupied. I find this “rule” works well for me. I’ve never had a problem using the Female loos. Just get in, do your business, and get out, with no fuss. And remember to sit down to pee!