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Trans community splits from GBLIQ
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I try and be open about myself to help others understand transexual crossdressers etc:)
I chat in a mainstream chat room and ofte nanswer many questiosn from people often genetic females but at times males and have at times turned a male auser ignorent person to respecting us etc;0
The questions im aksed are do i offend you askign qs my response ask away the more you ask i hope the more you understand and in the end you more likely to support defend and understand us:))
As for gay lesbian once i disliked oming under that umbrella but as im attracted to females i class self as lesbian and lets be honest here within the transexual crossdresser community theres those that like men thioe that like females those that like both so there are individuals within our community that do come under the gay lesbian banner also;
They may respond if reading this while they were out there over the years fighting for there rights etc were we stood beside them do we just want to ride on there coat tails on theree efforts we maybe should be out there workign on the acceptance of us etc tolerance what ever spin one chooses . i HAVE DAYS I FEEL INSECURE AND HIDE I HAVE OTHERS I FACE THE WORLD AND TALK OPENLY PROUDLY .
I need within myself to get out more and say im transexual and proud and in my view and thats all it is the more of us that do themore chance we have of changing views to us:))
to me most important of all is as a community we be there for each other as only we can truly understand how each can feel and how beeign a crossdresser or transexual effects us so i hope all memebers here stay strong as a group those you have foremd friendships with be there for the good times and bad:)) -
Quote:Splitting T from GLB isnt really going to work and is not the ideal but the problem is that we have not claimed or defined T for ourselves. We instead prefer to be thought of by everybody – gays included – as some kind of gay – whether post op or closet cd our gender is not acknowledged by anybody because we dont seem to take ourselves seriously enough to claim and defend being Transgender and having a Transgender Sexuality.
Transgender Sexuality is about seeing yourself as transgender in your sexuality instead of gay or straight – regardless of your partners headspace and what they see you as…
I’m not so sure about that. I’m transgendered but it has completely and utterly nothing to do with sex or sexuality for me. I guess I’d describe myself as socially transgendered. For me, it’s about being a woman within society, not in the bedroom.
I think that making an assumption about a connection between transgender and sexuality is similar to making an assumption about transgender and homosexuality. It may be the case for some, but it is not the case for all.
Alice
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Transgender sexuality is a sticky subject for a variety of reasons. Hell, the subject of sexuality is a minefield ripe for explosiveness in debate, even amongst such a small community that is the transgender rainbow. Labelling ourselves and our own preferences can lead to heated debate because the labels that we would apply to ourselves are so vague and open to interpretation in themselves. Can you tell me exactly what a transgender is, without inciting debate or hurting the feelings or offending the sensibilities of someone who may heatedly disagree with you?
Not a lot has been written on the subject, with the ‘official line’ being that if you transition or even exhibit gender behaviours of that not your assigned birth gender, your sexual preference will somehow magically shift so that you maintain the heterosexual ‘norm’. This is hardly the case as gender preference has absolutely nothing to do with sexual preference at all. Why would it change? Because society says so?
I dont think so.
So, where does that leave the state of play?
What do you consider yourself to be? Straight? Gay? Lesbian? Bi-sexual? And why does it really matter? Do you want to be considered gay just because you were male and now are female or you choose to present yourself as female by crossdressing, or dressing androgynously or arent the epitomy of the bronzed aussie male? This is where Jenni_Greens’ post regarding this is becoming important to really read and think about, the ramificaions can be very important to the future of relations between the GLB and the transgender community. I will quote Jennis post here in its entirity for you all.
Quote:Splitting T from GLB isnt really going to work and is not the ideal but the problem is that we have not claimed or defined T for ourselves. We instead prefer to be thought of by everybody – gays included – as some kind of gay – whether post op or closet cd our gender is not acknowledged by anybody because we dont seem to take ourselves seriously enough to claim and defend being Transgender and having a Transgender Sexuality.Transgender Sexuality is about seeing yourself as transgender in your sexuality instead of gay or straight – regardless of your partners headspace and what they see you as…
Transgender Sexuality is the T* in GLBT and is the headspace I as a lifelong T*person have always been in – not straight in my 20 year marriage, and not gay with the men I have been with, perhaps gay with other T*s but that too is T*Sexuality …
We dont need to split but dont we need to explain ourselves better, to ourselves and to society or lose the support of the GLB family, or worse end up throwing rocks at each other because some politician stirred us up into a separatism = enmity frenzy ?
for reference:
T-Girl Survival Guide
http://www.reneereyes.com/Webdocs/sextgtg.html
Transsexual Sexuality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual_sexualityNow, why am I re-iterating this post in a new thread, you may ask? I do so because while I am not going to preach seperatism, as I have been accused of, many times, I am going to state categoricaly that as transgenders, we need to assert our identities to finally start to have the stigma that has become attached to the transgender community, that we are all inevitably gay men in dresses and that we are fair game for all sections of the wider community to slag off, abuse, or be their victims of violence and murder. I am now a recognised transgender person under law, recognised by the government, accorded the rights of a born woman and yet STILL likely to be on the receiving end of crap like this? Even the gay community doesnt recognise me as a woman, just a gay man in a dress without anything useful for them, unappealing to their sexuality.
When is this going to change?
Not until we stand up and take charge of our own publicity and image. Involved in that is asserting our own sexuality and the rights to be whatever orientation we choose. Not what we are told we have to be, or that which is thrust upon us by history. Transgenders across the world are standing up for their own rights, its time that we asserted our own. I reserve the right to be the orientation of my own choosing, and live the way that I choose, and to just be me, and if you dont stand up and claim what is yours, you cant hardly cry foul when what little rights you already have evaporate like the morning mist to leave you standing in the harsh glare of the noonday sun, unprotected and alone.
Do you want a return of the days when you could be dragged out of the supposed safe haven of a gay bar by the police, all because you are crossdressed, or transsexual? I dont.
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Jade,
Abuse about Jades comment removed by moderator.
I repeat (but obviously some cannot understand)
there is no room in these forums for those sho cannot accept others opinions.
A gay man didnt get detained by Hornsby police this last weekend, a transgendered one did. Where were the gays in support of that luckless individual who was more than likely just out for a walk or taking his/her first frightened steps from the closet on a dark night? How come the police would have been more understanding of his plight if he was gay, indeed, would he have been detained should he have been openly gay? Where is the support for him/her when they were released? A witness inferred that if it was Oxford Street or someone/somewhere in a gay context, that they wouldnt have been concerned over the crossdressed appearance of the person involved. What does that all say to you?
T is being defined by everyone else except the T*people involved, and exploring identity is not seperatism.
I believe most TR members would claim the space of “I’m tranny, not gay!”, so where does that leave the whole you’re T in the GLBTQ thing?
:OT
PS If I have to edit another post in this way the author is going to get banned. Sorry – but I do have better things to do in my life:
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An idle thought…
If you are going to lump the T in with GLBQ, where is the I(interesexed) that seems to be dropped by many of the GLB’s? Look overseas and you will see just as vocal opposition to the I being included by the Intersexed people themselves. But that is an aside, because I want to question why the F for Fetishists isnt included in the GLBTIQ thing?
Isnt fetishism a sexual practice too, just like being gay, lesbian and bi-sexual?
Hey, why not include an H for Heterosexuality, isnt that a sexual practice too? And what about A for Asexuality? Just how inclusive should we be?
My question: What is it about being transgendered that is a sexual practice? Isnt being T* an emotional and medical issue, wrapped up in a social identity expression?
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Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy….the trans community is indeed split.
Personally I find all the distinctions and whether someone is gay or not, or if the gay community is helping/not helping us extremely unhelpful.
I am just trying to live my life and so far succeeding.
Take care and be nice girls.
Gwen -
Hi Jenny,
I agree. Trans people make a mockery of what is gay. And I like it…I’m surprised the general gay community doesn’t exploit the mockery trans people make of the entire hetero driven system.
Let’s postulate that I am entirely into guys. As long as I have a penis society will regard any activity I have with a guy as a gay relationship. Now I know and you all know that as a ts we are actually engaging in a hetero activity but the government and most other poeple don’t get it.
Now after srs and a gender change on my birth certificate I am now able to marry the same guy in a completely legal heterosexual relationship.
Overnight I turn from gay to hetero, although the whole community may not agree. . The whole concept is silly and that is both the power and the threat of ts people to others with a rigid mind set, and there are many of them.
That’s why I don’t find the whole “are we with the gay’s” usefull.Now actually since I am married to my female partner the whole above scenario will not take place. Instead I am denied the status of female on my birth certificate because my relationship becomes a gay marriage under the law. Once again just silly…I am the same person with the same physical condition yet in one scenario I can be female and the other I am male with a vagina. In a desparate attempt to deny I am in a same sex marriage with my partner government is quite happy to discriminate against me on the basis of my marital status….against their own policies.
Again trans people make a mockery of the entire “you can’t be married if you are gay” policy.
We actually have quite a bit to offer the gay community if they want to take up that mantle.
But really what is gay/not gay has completely lost meaning for me. It’s just a meaningless label applied almost randomly to ts people depending on their immediate circumstances.Take care
Gwen -
Quote:*chuckles*
Thank you for your agreement with what Jenni wrote, it is so gratifying to see that what she wrote and referred to is in fact applicable to our community.
If we dont use a concept such as this to promote self identification of our kind we will always inevitably come to be considered gay men and run all the risks associated with the wrong label.
You wouldnt want to take a medicine that was labelled wrong, would you?
I’ve read this at least two dozen times over several days and I still can’t figure out why you’re claiming that I agreed with Jenni when I was actually pointing out that her theory is not universally applicable to all transgendered people, and is therefore wrong for some.
I’m not the only crossdresser who maintains a clear separation between their strictly social female life and their male life that includes sexuality.
To laugh at such people and tell them that their reality is wrong is extremely divisive. We need to present a united transgender front to the world, not spend our time trying to drive a wedge between crossdressers and transexuals.
Alice
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While I support the G & L cause and we have been very lucky to have riden along on the wave we have now come to last 9 yards, which for the G & L’s is conveincing the rest of society that they can in the main exist out of sight in their own space, live in caring marriages, look after kids and in general blend into society. Where as we in the T have an entirely different run home, we are more like non white human rights campaigners we go into society wearing our difference, at this point is where I see the split will occur, it has already started and more and more I am reading posts of what has gay got to do with Trans?
The period we are in is probably the most siginificant in T history, we have the ability to define our future or fail but either way we will be on our own and that is really the way it should be.cheers
Rhi
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Hi All
Well I do think that we might need to look at it on a slightly different angle as all what is said is true …… but we are dealing with two issues here.
1. Trans issue as in our safety, rights and just allowed to be accepted and a lot of other issues that relate directly Trans.
2. We are all either Gay or Les in our own ways. As pointed out we are either gay before we become female (in the legal sense) or les after we become female (in the legal sense) and then the problem is in reverse if we are female to male trans.
So may be we should look at it in a way that we are Trans first and then we also join our gay or les groups secondly, as we are members of both groups.
We can not define how everyone feels, but we do need the same rights to life as a trans person. From there our other issues become either Gay or Les.
It should not matter if we think or feel that we are CD/TS/TG as we all need the same basic life requirements.
. – Safety (been allowed to dress and live with out fear of our lives)
. – Respect (not becoming an outcaste for who we fell we are)
. – Rights (The same writes as everone else as it our fredom)
. – Understanding (Education of non trans people to are are still who we have always been)(please feel free to add or remove items …..
Our Gay or Les issues will in clude anything relating to marrage or ways we interact with our partners.
So our Trans issues relate to our rights as our selves ….. our Gay and Les issues are about our way we interact with our partners or lovers.
So I hope this helps to put a different angle on this problem.
xxx
Kelly Jones
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Quote:we are dealing with two issues here.
Yes, that is certainly the case. I think that part of the problem that seems to be recurring in this thread is that some transsexuals seems unable to grasp the fact that one of the two issues in not applicable to all of us.
Quote:1. Trans issue as in our safety, rights and just allowed to be accepted and a lot of other issues that relate directly Trans.This is common to all of us. We need to be seen to be united in seeking rights and acceptance.
Quote:2. We are all either Gay or Les in our own ways. As pointed out we are either gay before we become female (in the legal sense) or les after we become female (in the legal sense) and then the problem is in reverse if we are female to male trans.This is where I’m concerned about attitudes expressed by some girls, to the effect that every TG person is really a TS but some haven’t realised it yet. This is simply wrong. Unfortunately, this attitude leads to consequential errors such as equating “transgender sexuality” with “transsexual sexuality”, which is one of the mistakes that has been made in this thread.
The first step in moving forward is to acknowledge that trans issues are not inexorably connected to sexuailty. We are not all either Gay or Les.
Quote:It should not matter if we think or feel that we are CD/TS/TG as we all need the same basic life requirements.
. – Safety (been allowed to dress and live with out fear of our lives)
. – Respect (not becoming an outcaste for who we fell we are)
. – Rights (The same writes as everone else as it our fredom)
. – Understanding (Education of non trans people to are are still who we have always been)Agreed.
Alice
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Quote:2. We are all either Gay or Les in our own ways. As pointed out we are either gay before we become female (in the legal sense) or les after we become female (in the legal sense) and then the problem is in reverse if we are female to male trans.
This is where I’m concerned about attitudes expressed by some girls, to the effect that every TG person is really a TS but some haven’t realised it yet. This is simply wrong. Unfortunately, this attitude leads to consequential errors such as equating “transgender sexuality” with “transsexual sexuality”, which is one of the mistakes that has been made in this thread.
:OT :OT
The following post is hijacking this thread
:OH
The original topic has nothing to do with discussing TS sexuality.
It concerns the relationship between transgender and the GLB… grouping.
Please do not discuss the following off-topic posting further,
Amanda
Alice the discusion as I understand it revolves aroud ts sexual identity. Again as I read it there is no implication that anyone else on the gender spectrum is implicated.
I have not in any post read that ts equals tg, and I really don’t understand what anybody’s particular sexuality/gender identity has to do with any of these labels.
Please allow us ts girls to discuss stuff without necessarily applying our discussion to non ts others.Gwen
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Hi Alice
Please I do not wish disrespect but I dont understand one point.
A male who has a relationship with a female is not classed as gay, but when that male puts on a dress and then looks and acts like a female, but still goes out with a female, even for one night, does that male present thems selfs to the world as a les or a male in a dress ….. to the rest of the world that can not tell, it shows a different view.
So yes I can see other issues here for some CD’s, but if you dont want to belong to Gay or Les …. then dont.
Kelly Jones
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Quote:Hi Alice
Please I do not wish disrespect but I dont understand one point.
A male who has a relationship with a female is not classed as gay, but when that male puts on a dress and then looks and acts like a female, but still goes out with a female,
I do understand your confusion. You’re making an assumption that that happens. In my case, I’m sexually disinterested when presenting myself as female, and always have been. For me, crossdressing is a social activity that allows me to express the feminine side of my personality. There is nothing sexual or erotic about it, and hasn’t been since I passed through the transvestic fetishism phase that many CDs go through when they first begin to crossdress.
On the rare occasions that I go out with my partner while presenting as female, we go out as friends. Whether the casual observer perceives me as a man in a dress or as a woman, they won’t see me as being with a partner.
Alice
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In my experience so far, after many hours of discussion in therapy with a psychologist and psychiatrist, they and I came to agree upon something that was important to me. Moving from fetishistic transvestism to a point where the clothes no longer elicit a sexual response is a transition, and that particular transition most often involves some reforming of individual identity, along with attitudes to many things in life. Some people, during this transition also change aspects of their sexuality, others change orientation.
What this has to do wth this thread, I believe, is that our sexuality plays an important part in identity and that our identity, especially for transgendered persons, plays a large part in what rights we need to fight for and who we should align ourselves with, as regards GLB etcetera. I dont believe that just because I dress in the clothes of a woman, that I am declaring any form of sexuality/orientation which could then be used to label me with a G L or B. I dress to present myself as a woman and I dont see people going around labelling women on the street, out in the greater community, as straight or lesbian. Why am I, as a transgendered person, suddenly fair game for a label that doesnt fit me, nobody has that right to pin a label upon me except me.
A gay or lesbian non-transgendered person usually wont require the medical expertise and services that a transgendered person often will. If I had to go to a specific medical professional and declare I was gay or lesbian to access their services, I couldnt morally do so. I dont want to have to lie to the world to gain the protections already afforded to the GLB, who sadly, seem to have been a little lax in supporting their T* GLBT political partners.
I personally find it hard to identify with the GLB community because I am not gay lesbian or bi-sexual. According to the generally accepted use of the word, transgendered encompasses the whole spectrum of people exploring gender, and while you may claim to be gay or lesbian, straight or bi, if you are exploring your gender in one way or another, doesnt that make you transgendered too? When the GLB does tell T* to stand up for itself (and this has happened before, and may yet again), what will happen to those under the T* banner, people like you and me? Will we be forced to wear a label that doesnt fit us or will we eventually get our collective s$%t together and stand up for what we ourselves really need and want?
