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( WHY) Do the world see us as perverted freaks?
In a recent thread , Amanda suggested that a separate thread be started into the above heading. My thoughts are these,while some people find transgender folk to be offensive , even without knowing them , I find that the majority of people I encounter ( now that I am more open and honest with the world) treat me with respect and decency. Of course I get the odd abusive comment then I guess most people ( “normal” ones I mean) may say the same. Dickheads and idiots cannot be discounted but they are not worth considering in this debate.
So why do some people find us offensive? I think that the main cause is that in our society, women are still considered to be inferior to men and to see a man wanting to be “womanly” is seen as a rejection of male privilege and culture and a thus a ” crime against nature”. The old story about the Lord and the peasant sums it up nicely I think . If woman are peasants and men are lords then for a peasant to desire becoming a lord is commendable but the reverse is just perverse!
Look at the examples of HIStory and you will see that many women joined armies to find a lost lover or went to sea disguised as men and were applauded for doing so ( were often seen as bettering themselves!) but when men disguised themselves as women , they were seen as sexually deviant or somehow engaged in subversive acts such as spying . I do not think that the general attitude has changed that much.
Another aspect is that the majority of people ever think or ponder their gender roles. Why should they? They are secure in their genders and have no need to look outside of it. We , on the other hand are often aware of our differences at an early age and are often searching for where we fit in. This can make us good observers of others as we look for how to behave in order to ( try ) and be the same as others. The media is saturated with cisgendered images and rolemodels and it is only recently that gay or Trans folk have been featured as ” good” people. My father , who was born in 1914 , once told me he never saw gay men in the old days!! Where were they all? Hiding , that’s where! You could get hard labour in England until recent times ( see Oscar Wilde) or hanged or beaten to death if caught in the wrong place and TG meant GAY , as it still is with a lot of people today.
The sad thing for me is that many women (as well as TG folk!) have been co opted into this gender divide and follow the herd without question. Look at how many women still put up with sexist banter and put downs , never mind violence , from men. Even the terms used to describe women are often derogatory. Many women fail to see this , it is merely background to their life experiences. You can also to see the headlong rush for cosmetic surgery and the Billions spent on trying to appear like the ideals of womanhood portrayed in the media, to see how pervasive the gender duality is.
To sum up , I believe that the majority of people do not hate us, do not see us as freaks but have never thought about how it is to feel outside of your given gender and do not understand the simple answers given to their queries. That is because it is not simple. Many of us have no idea WHY we are so, just a knowledge that we are different.
I also am a firm believer in the adage that what we put out, we get back. If we go about in a surly” Fuck you” manner then we can expect the same in return. I respect the peace and security of others, am prepared to stand my ground, respectfully, and generally receive the same in return. I do not expect others to like me but will not accept disrespect or abuse.
What do others think about this issue? -
17 Replies
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women are demeaned and abused threatened and taunted in such a way that it disgusts me to see how males treat women and maybe thats why i cross dress because im ashamed to be seen as male knowing what a majority of them do.
My partners ex frequently abused and beat her up even now we get the abusive phone calls even a death threat ( yes i bought a baseball bat, let him come round ) now as i look on facebook i see a schoolkid about 14 i think he is telling my eldest stepdaughter to f*** off and calling her a c *** and thinking its funny to hit her at school, yes i told him off politely as much as i could not to speak to her that way and its not ok to hit girls i got the same f*** and c*** as she did, kids yah gotta love em so you see kids are taught at a young age thats its ok to treat females as garbage.
Society is long overdue for change in its way of thinking. -
I think there is still a deep rooted fear of things that are not the norm. Men dressing as women has always been associated with the stage or in some cultures as a sexual variation (Asia in particular). If you dress as a women those considered to be normal (what is normal about being violent, rude and angry?) have to act the part of the macho person and deride you because you threaten their masculinity.
It will always be one of those things that we can never be sure of as long as we live.
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I wouldn’t say that a large proportion of the world sees us as freaks, at least not in my experience. I have found varying degrees of acceptance which are tending to show up commonly within certain groups.
The only verbal abuse that I have had was from an unkempt man on Fitzroy Street who looked as if his IQ was roughly equivalent to the square root of his shoe size. I have had similar abuse from similar looking men while I have been wearing male clothes- I get the impression that some men think that not being unkempt and uncouth makes one effeminate. They have probably grown up with these values and know no better.
I have had a few terse responses, one shop keeper of Mediterranean descent gave me a look as if I’d been directly responsible for the death of his grandmother. A lot of men just don’t look at me; it’s as if they won’t have to think about me if they haven’t seen me.
Teenage girls have been known to greet me with a lot of hysterical shrieking, but then teenage girls scream and carry on a lot anyway. I’ve heard some unkind things attributed to male gays but have personally only experienced indifference at worst.
Middle aged women are my favourite group. I’ve met them in a lot of situations and they are almost always accepting.
So why do a (very) few think we are freaks? I did ask my ex that but she wouldn’t answer me. Men seem mostly perplexed and perhaps dislike about us what they dislike about a lot of women-whatever that is!
As I said at the start I don’t believe everyone sees us as perverts and/or freaks. But I am worried when someone well known in the community gets outed for kiddie porn. If they should also be caught in a skirt then we will all be paedophiles by (very tenuous) association. I hesitate to mention the one case, I’m sure there are other examples I could have used.
A counsellor that I saw recently said that she thought that TG people were about where gay people were in the community twenty years ago. I agreed with her at the time but I think that acceptance across the community is like water flowing across a window pane-some parts are well advanced and others lag behind. The trick is to try and hang out with the advance party.
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I am clearly gender diverse with full beard and always wear a padded bra and clearly fem top most of the time I get strange looks but no-one in the public has made comments related to pervasion or me being sick / freak I do however get laughed at by teenagers & young adults. I have come to enjoy the questions from children and teenagers. The only people who have been hurtful have been people that I thought would be supportive – mostly other trans people who have not been willing to accept me as an equal human.
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I’ve certainly had no issues so far, and just recently i’ve been going out mainstream aswell with no probs at all. I shop in drab in brisbane city and surrounding suburbs and have never once had negative treatmant. I’m even havng a wedding gown fitting in 2 weeks at a bridal boutique and the lady could not be more knd and helpful.
I know there is people out there that see us as “freaks”, but never has it ever been put across me. I’m happy being me and dressing everyday and thats all that matters. -
I’m only speaking for trans women here: I don’t think they see us as all. When people actually get to know me I they mostly start to relax about it and accept (although some males will always find it difficult). I think it’s because they judge us according to some sort of predifined impression. Where it comes from I’m not sure. It could be the hyperfeminine style that some of us present with (and yes, I have been guilty too). It could be that they are confusing gender expression with sexuality somehow. I’m truly not sure. I know it exists. How many times has a post op woman found herself being treated differently by the same person when they find out you were not always gendered as female. It’s not just the ‘what else aren’t you telling me thing’ either. It’s sort of ‘You have boy germs’ even though you now don’t. In the pagan community there are groups I will simply never get invited too because somehow my (non existant) male energy will upset their femine space. In another instance I know of a pagan woman who was well accepted until they found out about her other gendered past. Now it’s “Ewwww, we accepted her into our space” . I know it’s not quite the “pervert tag” discussion but I strongly feel that it’s related…and I’m wondering if there is a bit of ‘pervert’ tag stuff applying in these situations although they will never say that aloud.
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I agree strongly with Lauren on this issue
I feel not only a strong desire to be a woman but this desire at times is very much reinforced by my (not so hidden) hatred of men and the way they act both towards women and towards each other, that I want to be femme and wish I’d never have to see men again! At times I feel the ideal world would be a mixture of GG women who were all women and women who are equivalent of pre ops . This way they could satisfy each other sexually if they want to or be lesbian … Yes I would be bouyed up by the fact that I owuld be largely out of the male world if i were a passable tg girl
Hugs
Suzz -
While reading the responses I was reminded of an incident years ago when we threw a fancy dress party and a guy I knew came along . He seemed comfortable enough but during the chat , he said ” sorry but I can hear you talking but I can’t see you”. I have also seen guys looking at my breasts while I was dressed as a woman and then check themselves as if they suddenly realized that I was not a woman.
Perhaps the fact that we blur the gender messages when we are dressed ? Shaped eyebrows, fringes ( give a narrow forehead)are subtle gender markers and lipstick is a sexual message saying “sexually available “! Not to mention cleavage etc. This may trigger confusion in men. Some men act aggressively when they are confused and Bob’s your aunty!??
This may explain why the reactions of some people are sometimes over the top. -
One reason that I think that we may have a bad stigma attached to us is because of the shows on television where girls come out to their boyfriends of a few months and so on and tell these guys that they are actually dating a guy and have been led on etc. I used to see these shows ages ago (20-25 years) so you can see the bad publicity that has been occurring. Another piece of bad attitude would surely come from the girls selling themselves on the street to guys who are half drunk and don’t realise anything until the clothes come off. Combined with a lack of social education (which is still the case although it’s slowly improving I feel) the bad stigmas do hang around until you prove yourself to be a good person which takes time.
That’s my take on why people see us as perverted freaks.
Peta A. -
Why does there need to be categories? I have been dressed femme and never had anyone mention anything out loud. Maybe I am lucky that I am tall and appear to have a look of “just try and make an issue of it”.
I shop for femme gear in drab all the time and rarely does anyone even notice.
Gwendoline has a point about expression and guess what – GG women will dsicuss negatively about women who express their gender to the point where sultry becomes slutty.
It is not about absolutes of femminineness or maleness, it is all about perceptions. Like how does the energy of the universe change because this week you know that a person is TG that you did not know about last week ?????? WTF
BTW I am utterly surprised that pagan”ity” has a gender issue but that only indicates to me that if a belief/religion has a name then it is organised religion wit “fixed rules” and is intrinsically bad – just my view
Juliette
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I have found reading this very interesting. My personal opinion is that it is the human fear of the unknown. The full time T-girls mostly will aim to assimilate into the community as that is normally their greatest desire. Most rightly so don’t advertise their history. The part times who don’t have to come out into society can hide. This being said if the general society got to know us then they would accept and probably not care.
When I go out I am to dress and look as much like a normal woman would – hence many times they can see me but won’t even guess my true gender. I do get read from time to time but not by that many and the reactions can be fascinating. From my limited knowledge it is pretty much the same for most t-girls that I have met, after all don’t we want to be seen as female. Hence we may walk among the normal people but they don’t know it, the fear of the unknown remains.
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Good point Brenda. But i wonder….its a two way fear thing [for me anyway]
The fear of the “others” out there, and the fear of stepping outside the home.
All totally unfounded of course. So i keep asking myself why that keeps me indoors. BronwynModerator
Quote:This thread is wandering off topic. Which was nothing directly to do with fear of going out.
Please keep all future posts to the original topic which was:
( WHY) Do the world see us as perverted freaks?
Thanks! -
I largely agree with Brenda. I think people have a tendency to be scared of things they don’t understand. Remeber all of us talking here don’t view each other as “perverted freaks”, and that’s because we all understand what it’s about, even if we cover a fairly wide spectrum of CD-TV-TG-TS.
When I was younger, I came out. Not long after, one of my best freinds came out as being bi-sexual. About two years after all of this,we had a really big fight because he told me he couldn’t accept me as Laura, because he didn’t see me as being that person. I think everyone here would understand just how much that hurt me, but it made me realise that people really do fear things they don’t comprehend.
I often wonder how I would view transsexuality if I didn’t identify myself as being transsexual. Hopefully, I am an open minded enough person to be accepting of it, but who really knows…
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From what I have seen in the forum, many previous posts have a very good understanding of this topic. However, there is no easy answer on the subject.
From the male perspective, we need to remember that sexual attraction etc is often partially based on visual stimulation. Therefore a guy might see what he perceives to be an attractive female, and would be threatened to suddenly discover that the female he finds attractive is actually a male – or even used to be. This isn’t always related to the situation at the time, if he finds out that the subject of his affection has had gender-reassignment surgery (sorry if that’s not the correct term), then he will feel threatened knowing that he was attracted to someone that was originally the same sex as himself – some hetero guys will definitely be threatened by this, as it makes them feel like they’re potentially gay.If the male doesn’t necessarily find himself attracted to the other person, but still finds their presence a threat, it’s most likely because they don’t quite understand the idea and thoughts behind what they’re seeing. This isn’t directly related to IQ or intelligence, although there are quite a few people who are not as well equipped with brain ability as others, who do have this problem. Unfortunately it’s more related to people’s socialisation (ie how they’re taught to accept people and differences in life), and their life experiences. Someone who is able to socialise with people from many different cultures may be able to adjust to the concept more than someone who doesn’t socialise at all. Also if the person has been through a number of different experiences in life, travelled, done various things etc, then perhaps they’re able to deal with it better.
I would even go so far as to say that this applies to many women as well. Unfortunately those who have smaller worlds and only exist within their suburbs or nearby areas may not have as much understanding of something that is different or not as uniformly defined as they would like.
I should point out that by this, I don’t intend to stereotype just those who live and work only in their own suburbs. I would suggest that someone who is a specialist in their field but has little idea of what’s going on in the rest of the world is also perhaps the type of person we’re looking at.In a nutshell, it’s my belief that the people who have the most problem with us, or anyone who is slightly out of the ordinary, would be someone who is either unable or unwilling to see things that don’t always fit the mould. Some may be frightened by the concept, they may not understand it, and therefore be frightened by what they don’t understand, they may be insecure about themselves, or they may just not be willing to accept anything that is slightly less than clearly cut and dried.
I apologise for the length of this post, too. These are my views, but most of what I’ve seen and learned in life seem to back them up more or less.
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Hi,
This will depend on where even the county you live , the people you know ,who youv known over 50 years . people youv worked with . & dare i say it doing some think that most of you will never do let alone wont to.
One word acceptance , & how can you have that,Certinly not the way i did it , yet ,
Okay i invited people i knew in to my life & told them upfront what was going to happen who i was really & worked with people i had never met.
I was interviewed for our two main T V stations cambell live & close up may june 07 then in our papers & then world wide . on the internet.& then had people ring me up from 50 years ago who i knew,
any regrets none i had 5 people i knew who could / would not accept i was ./ am a woman.
I spoke to over two groups of people of 130 people & was well received . & have spoken to 100s more ,& im in front of 1000s of people ,
& our family are getting there in accepting i am a woman slow yes & thats over 12 years, & 7 for our children oh grand kids will be 8 in a few days time ,Lack of understanding ,
For some yes not wonting to know & those that have thier own problems so no they wont, & certain others because of what theyv been taught will not , & thats okay .Now iv been all over the south isl of N Z no probs , Iv been in austraila & no probs were ever iv been , so that stands for it self acceptance ,
may be understanding well for some yes others not sure yet,Yet does every one understand how a car works no of cause not ,
does not stop people from driving them .,
so this will take time for people to understand allso.
So may be a lack of understanding yet i have acceptance.…noeleena…
