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Trans community splits from GBLIQ
The heading is fiction but I thought I would just throw this out there and see what sort of response it would stimulate and in an effort to review what we really do have in common I pose 10 valid reasons to drop the T from acronym (GLBTIQ) and before people go on the defensive this is not an assault on G&L’s, so please put away the daggers
1. We are most marginalised group with very little support or understanding from our umbrella brothers and sisters.
2. Gays are the least understanding of women in general, let alone understanding us.
3. We are excluded from the protection of laws and used as trade off when it comes to the laws being passed for G&L’s
4. We are not fashionable and have no high profile personalities to support us or further our cause save a few stereotypical actors.
5. Stealth is our middle name we do not have the opportunity to be visible in society.
6. The losses we experience are incalculable. I know people who are medical doctors, dentist, police officers, academics, architects, engineer, laywers, soldiers and scientist, who loose their jobs, careers, family, friends, suffer poverty, turn to prostitution and suicide as part of the course of being who you are and managing to stay alive. Who from the G&L’s can say they face such big looses or challenges?
7. Our focus is not on sex and where our next sexual adventure will come from, ours is on our gender presentation, this is so misunderstood by G&L’s, the look of pure wonder when you profess that you are straight and in a gay bar?
8. The reason that the discrimination against T-folks is the same as the discrimination against Gs, Ls and Bs in character — namely, it is a discrimination based on gender, what is considered “gender appropriate behavior” and so forth. That’s the core of all of the discrimination against everyone in the LGBT umbrella but try and get a our allies to understand that.
9. G&L’s and granted the same as straights have a hard time accepting that we understand that our brain gender does not match our biological gender.
10. Right now there’s an effort to normalize gays, to say, “We are just like you, we want marriage rights, job protection.” And as the gay community makes political gains, the fear is that the trans community will look too weird. A lot of trans-people feel that the gay community has shunned them and said, “Not you guys, not yet. Let us get our rights, and then maybe you can come along.” Also, being gay and being transgender are different issues. Gender identity and sexual desire are really separate tracks — who you want to be with vs. who you identify as. Yet they’re lumped together under the same umbrella called “queer.”
Really put simply if we want to be recognised, understood and have a voice perhaps it is long overdue that we get off our backsides and start making stand for what we want and not live in hope that others will do it for us how ever closely allied they appear to be.
The heading was fiction but do we have the strength and conviction to make it reality? -
39 Replies
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I have to agree with you, I’m not claiming to be an authority but the majority of gays I know have no real sympathy or interest in us. Perhaps they might feel some sort of empathy cos we are marginalised.
As mentioned we don’t have enough high profile people among our ranks who would come out and declare them selves and I don’t blame them. At best we’re odd, usually we’re something of disgust among the general public, “At least gays know what they are”, type of comment, even from gays I hear that. Sad to say I think we still have a long way to go.
Helen[quote=”Rhiannon”
1.We are most marginalised group with very little support or understanding from our umbrella brothers and sisters.
2. Gays are the least understanding of women in general, let alone understanding us.
3. We are excluded from the protection of laws and used as trade off when it comes to the laws being passed for G&L’s
4. We are not fashionable and have no high profile personalities to support us or further our cause save a few stereotypical actors.[/quote]
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Actually posted this topic on a couple of other forums and like here got some excellent responses, here was one I would like to share….
O.K. — now we have this “umbrella”. Let us assume I’m just a run of the mill gay guy or lesbian. I’m open, and accepting — and curious about this “TG Umbrella”
Now, I begin to examine my “allies”. I discover there are WBT’s and post-ops who identify as lesbians. Others identify as straight women. In addition there are those who ID as non-op, who also claim to be straight women or lesbians. Others are pre-op — some are not exactly sure how they identify.
There are various TV’s – some are gay men who dress for performance. Others live as women almost all the time. Some are straight men who dress regularly. Others only “once in a while”.
Some are “in your face”. Truly “gender transgressive” . Others just want to blend into society, and live their lives.
We have CD’s who appear to be a subset of TV’s — some are violently homophobic. Some can only connect with men while “en femme” — but say they are “straight”.
Then you have various and sundry “genderfuck” folks, and the various CD / TV fetish folks — who have a specific “presentation” .
With the FtM’s, we have all the various “bois”, “boyz” — the FtM’s that want to assimilate into the male world, those who maintain ties to the lesbian community, those who continue to teach Women’s Studies — while being men when it’s good for them.
There are various Drag Kings, TV’s, and TG’s among the FtM’s — as an example, I knew this woman who was a Drag King, who played at being a male TV — wearing skimpy little costumes, while sporting a huge dildo in her panties. “He” really got all the trannie chasers into a frenzy with the combination of female body and male member. That’s really “transgressive” .
Now, we put it all under some “umbrella” — all these different motivations, goals, purposes — then we tell folks we are all “more or less the same”.
Is there any wonder why so many folks say — “……….. …… and the horse you rode in on?”.
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I’m sorry Rhiannon, I strongly disagree with your idea. I find that my gay aquaintances are very accepting of me [though I do not seek their validation]. I think that your thread was a tad generallized , perhaps it is your own experience but not mine.
I think that the gay community has fought hard and many have lost their lives in the fight for the social freedom that they are afforded today and we can learn a lot from their courage and strategies. We have a lot in common with gay folk and what they have in spades and what we don’t have, in general terms, is the courage to be “out” in the wide world and, as you say, who is going to stand up and be counted in the meantime. Until we do our own work, I think we should accept the offer of ” umbrella ” status. Of course if people want to divorce themselves from GLBQ folk, that is their right. -
Quote:Now, we put it all under some “umbrella” — all these different motivations, goals, purposes — then we tell folks we are all “more or less the same”.
Is there any wonder why so many folks say — “……….. …… and the horse you rode in on?”.
We all bend gender in some fashion. In that way we are at least all similar.
Is he saying that femmes, butches, stone butches and other lesbian variants have to act the same way? They are similar in that they have at attraction to women but have different characteristics.
He just demonstrates that he doesn’t get it.
Gwen -
hi…. can i say this i have not had any help in the main from the trans community as such i am on my own. may be that has helped me more . i have more friends now & they are just women as we say gg.s i do know a lot of trans just not as close as . like down the road its 1 1 / 2 & 2 1 / 2 hours away. i talk to you all on here on the chat so i dont meet like i would like to. so i get on well with the women i know here in waimate & our towns near by as i grow as a women i get help from those who i know we dont have a glb groups here . in ch ch they do any way i get on well as a women so no proplems on that ….. just a thought ….noeleena…..
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This is a complex and emotion charged topic but one that I feel strongly about. Firstly, I would march beside gays GLBs for recognition of their rights. My CDing has only strengthened my tolerance to others.
I do, though, distinguish myself from GLBs. Yes, I am in a minority group, but I don’t otherwise see any similarity of interest. From my (limited) experiences, they are as perplexed about me as the rest of the public. I have spent considerable time convincing my wife I am not gay and want to leave her. The linkage weakens my position and adds to the public stereotyping.
As for fighting for our own rights. Good idea but most won’t venture out of the cupboard let alone into the headlines.
Thanks for raising this tricky issue.
Michelle
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Quote:I think that the gay community has fought hard and many have lost their lives in the fight for the social freedom that they are afforded today and we can learn a lot from their courage and strategies. We have a lot in common with gay folk and what they have in spades and what we don’t have, in general terms, is the courage to be “out” in the wide world and, as you say, who is going to stand up and be counted in the meantime. Until we do our own work, I think we should accept the offer of ” umbrella ” status.
Christina, I ask you ONE question…
Just what, exactly, have GLB politics done for transpeople?
Oh sorry, another question… Just who is offering us their umbrella?
Being trans is about gender expression and identity, not sexual expression/orientation/who you are screwing. The GLB have won most of their battles, with the dawn maybe soon rising on their Alamo, same sex marriage, but what exactly have they done to address any of the needs of people who have been under their so-called umbrella who do not necessarily identify with their GLB ideals and yet who still seem to be counted when it comes time for numbers, ie transgender people, you, me, and anyone who questions their gender.
I am trans. My being trans is not dependant upon my sexuality, and my sexuality is not dependant upon my being trans, and the sooner everyone gets that through their skulls, the sooner we start to fight for our own needs and rights.
The GLB fought the good fight and have nearly won, its time to take their example and do for ourselves as a people what they have done for themselves.
This is NO seperatism, this is not sedition or heresy, its a call to arms to stand for ourselves.
Thank you Rhiannon for starting this thread.
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I don’t think the GLB community has help us directly…I do think they have helped indirectly. There’s a lot of ignorance out there still…I think GLB’s have made society more accepting of social diversity as a whole by being brave and getting out there in public and not being ashamed of who they are.
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From reading the posts I think the general consensus is that we do not need inclusion and furthermore as Mari so rightly pointed out the GBL mob are near the end of their major campaign and weather we would like inclusion or not soon rather than later we will have to stand alone.
Now is the time to do something to make a stand, a change or a difference but alas that is as far as most people go having a good thought, then the thoughts about the consequence of their stealth life cover being blown, how not passable they are outside of a nightclub, work, family the list goes on and so it gets put off to another time. Well just before it goes why not try a different approach? There was an excellent campaign set up by National Centre for Transgender Equality in the USA called 52 things you can do locally for transgender equality, here is the link http://nctequality.org/52things.asp
I am not saying to follow this, in fact it could be quite fun for us to think up our own list hear at TR, this way alot of people can be actively doing something without having to completely rock your world.
So here goes.
1. Write a letter to your local MP asking do they support Trans rights.
2. Go to a GBL bar and ask people you meet if they know about Trans and our rights.
3. On remembrance day wear a black ribbon. -
Something else to think about…
What do I say to the people who tell me being transgender is
dangerous, I say “hell yeah” because one simple little fact remains
after all is said and done. When transgenders get beaten, mugged, or
killed, what is the one thing that always ends up coming to light?THEY WERE HURT AND KILLED FOR BEING GAY… THEY WERENT HURT AND KILLED FOR BEING TRANSGENDER.
And why were they hurt and killed, accused of being gay? Because our
current politics TIE US WITH the gay and lesbian lobby.A lobby who DOESNT want or even understand OUR politics.
Something to think about……
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Mari, you make a lot of sweeping statements in your thread. I think trans, gay, queer people are assaulted more often than not because we are different and those who commit such crimes are looking for ANYONE they can assault and don’t really need an excuse but if you are different , you draw attention and that is enough. Of course there are those poor bastards who look for gays to bash but I’ll bet that anyone will do if they LOOK gay and are available.
Are gay people to blame for the fact that trans folk get bashed?
The gay community, as Karen has pointed out, has forged a more accepting Society for all people who are outside of the ” straight ” world and we now benefit from those freedoms to some extent. I am saying that trans people can learn much from their struggle but while we are closetted, we are invisible and “strange”viz NOT part of the Community.
As for the sexuality question, of course crossdressing is about our sexuality, EVERYTHING we do,[ even for a celibate nun] is about our sexuality. One can’t be human and not have a sexuality but a sexual preference is a different thing to a sexuality!
About the ” umbrella” I assume that GLB groups have included us in their umbrella , otherwise we are wrong in tagging ourselves to them in the first place. As I said earlier , if one doesn’t want to be there, one can opt out as an individual. -
*Looks at Christina with a quizzical glance…*
Hmmmm, Ok, best way to answer your post is to attend to each thing you have put here, point by point.
Firstly, its not my thread, it was started by Rhiannon(again, thanks to Rhiannon).
Second, I wonder, have you read the stories and reports regarding the deaths of transgendered people, remembered on Transgender Day of Remembrance, 20th November of every year? They died to the accusations of being gay, usually whilst having their heads kicked in or being shot. How they died is unimportant, that they died at all is the point, and what is the most often used defence when suspects are brought before a court for trial for murder, if they are ever caught at at?
The Gay Panic defense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense
To illustrate the point, this morning I was speaking with my stepdaughter about why her friend was no longer permitted to visit our house. Her reply to my question of why was that the friends parents are extremely HOMOPHOBIC, and because I am TRANSGENDER, that she is not to come near our house. Now I ask you, why is it naturally assumed that I am homosexual/gay/lesbian/wtf ever when I am transgender and not ‘out’ with regards to my sexuality/sexual preference AT ALL? Now I ask you something very important here… if I walk down the street on the arm of a man, I get slagged as gay. If I walk on a womans arm, I get accused of being lesbian(gay). Now, if im gay and lesbian at the same time, WHEN the heck am I ever heterosexual?? And whoever gave people the right to label me in the first place? The only way they could even remotely morally make a decision about what label they thought we should wear… our association with the gay lobby under their ‘umbrella’.
Another thing Christina, I dont know where you are at, TG vs TS vs CD, and whatever label you choose to wear is yours by right of choice, you seem to speaking rhetoric, whereas I speak from everyday experience, living fulltime, out in the big bad world, most often NOT in LGBIQ friendly areas.
Oh yes, and if you had infact read my posts, you would see that I wholly support and give credit to the GLB lobby for what they have acheived, so many great things for their community and that we could learn from what they did and how they did it, that we as a community need to step away from them and work towards acheiving for ourselves as a community of transgendered people.
For you, crossdressing may be about sexuality, but in the way it was brought up in this thread, sexuality was linked to sexual prefence, not the act of sex.
Quote:Being trans is about gender expression and identity, not sexual expression/orientation/who you are screwing.Im sorry but I peronally must disagree with your generalisation that “EVERYTHING we do,[ even for a celibate nun] is about our sexuality.”. Furthermore, “One can’t be human and not have a sexuality but a sexual preference is a different thing to a sexuality! ” is not entirely true as their are many people in this world who are or choose to be asexual for their own reasons, and I would ask you to elaborate much further if you are going to use such a misnomer as “a sexual preference is a different thing to a sexuality”.
Ok, finally, about the umbrella…
In 1993, the Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby, was headed then by co-conveners Peter Costello and Jane Clements, Ms Clements stated that “They’re(Transgenders are) members of our community whether they identify as gay or lesbian or not, (but) I feel that the GLRL is for gays and lesbians …
“I don’t think it’s actually up to the GLRL to start fighting on behalf of transgender people. If they want to set up their own group to do that, that’s much more appropriate, and if they want the GLRL’s help, then I’m sure that would be forthcoming.â€
So you can see that whilst we may be part of ‘their’ community, they have no wish to stand up and fight for transgender rights, a stand that still exists to this day.
And you know what, I chose not to opt out an an individual(or some may say, a seperatist) but instead to speak up for change for the betterment for all people with a gender enquiry.
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I suppose in some ways I’ve been lucky in what I’m doing, you see when I started this I approached it with a F@&k it lets explore attitude and thats what I’ve been doing ever since.
I’ve been pretty much full time since October last year and I still firmly believe that I will never pass as a genetic girl. In fact I don’t think that is the aim of what I’m doing. I’m doing what I’m doing to be me. Not gay, not straight, not male or female, just me.
It might sound a bit selfish but it’s none the less true
In the U.K. you have Eddie Izzard. A very high profile comedian. Who has been an out T.V. for years, happily married, wife & 2. The Kiwi’s have/had a member of Parliament. So we have high profile members of the community, what’s high profile anyway. It’s not what we really need. the whole gay movement basically started with the statement I’m here, I’m queer, so what. That’s the attitude that we need to adopt
Yes having high profile members is good, but to get the message across, the GP need to see that the way that we have been painted is wrong. High profile members need to have a strong base of support from lower profile members, who are also out and in the community at large, just living there lives.
Yes there are risks involved but you take risks every time you drive a car. Me, I drive a bus, I have done for the last fifteen years. The only difference now is my wardrobe and my chest. So does that make me high profile? Or just someone living there life
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Hi Christina, **hugs** To you, long time.
Thanks for that observation, I have been looking at it from a different aspect but of course you are correct in every way, people who want to assault people seldom need an excuse, if someone is different it’s a reason on a platter. There are always gay bashers, there are always those who bash cross dressers there are always those who bash different ethnic groups, perhaps we need to adopt the gay anthem, ‘I’m here, I’m T.G. deal with it’. We don’t need high profiles, they don’t need the aggravation. We just need people to just get over having t.g.’s in the community
HelenQuote:Mari, you make a lot of sweeping statements in your thread. I think trans, gay, queer people are assaulted more often than not because we are different and those who commit such crimes are looking for ANYONE they can assault and don’t really need an excuse but if you are different , you draw attention and that is enough. Of course there are those poor bastards who look for gays to bash but I’ll bet that anyone will do if they LOOK gay and are available. -
Hi Malla, I am sorry I think I plagiarised your comments in my response to Christina, I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, that’s my only excuse.
Your comment re high profilers getting support from the ‘rank and file’ is very accurate and is your idea, not mine.
HelenQuote:the whole gay movement basically started with the statement I’m here, I’m queer, so what. That’s the attitude that we need to adopt
Yes having high profile members is good, but to get the message across, the GP need to see that the way that we have been painted is wrong. High profile members need to have a strong base of support from lower profile members, who are also out and in the community at large, just living there lives.
