Adrian
Forum Replies Created
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Quote:Well it does appear my friend was correct in her assertion that trying to get transgender people to organise is like trying to heard chickens.I’m not sure that berating people for being passive, and insulting them, is a great way forward.
Given the immediacy of the day-to-day problems and constraints many TgR members face I suspect many lack the motivation to get involved in more abstract conversations.
Many may also question how tangible benefits can be achieved given the apparently intractable situation they find themselves in.Quote:We all have opinions they come with a brain so let’s hear them. The other forum was established for just such a purpose,Showing restraint when one is not confident how things can be improved is natural. So for many valid reasons members may not want to comment on the message we should project to society.
We should perhaps consider if we have found the right way to engage people, rather than critisise them for staying silent.
I was particularly taken with a paragraph from Peter’s keynote address.
Quote:We didn’t have to track down
individuals and bring them kicking and screaming to community events. We
provided a apace, and terms of engagement which were respectful and
inclusive. People found us – and in doing so, they found each other.The onus is clearly on those who believe in the need to communicate, and are able to contribute to the public voice, to nurture and grow the space.
To set up a platform for engaging the wider public that is respectful and inclusive of all gender diverse people.
And then we will find that gender diverse people are attracted to support and contribute to this worthwhile cause.What shape or form that platform needs to be I’m not sure. But please let us focus on working to find out – not criticizing others for our failure to engage them.
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Further to my email pointing out that the wording of a couple of questions may introduce an unintended survey bias, I received this nice response from the liaison officer.
Quote:Hi Adrian,Thank you for your email, I truly appreciate your feedback regarding
the survey questions. I do understand what you are saying regarding
sexuality and gender and the difference. I do apologise for not
recognising this in the survey, and further misrepresenting the
transgender community. I will certainly take this information back to
the research analyst.I would like to also thank you for promoting the survey on your website,
and hope UnitingCare Ageing can ensure clear understanding for ageing
transgender people and provide inclusive aged care that represents the
transgender community’s aspiration for ageing.Best wishes Kellie
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Quote:I think this survey is so important for all of us to help us be accepted and recognised part of society
I don’t want to appear like a grumpy old woman… but I did write to the survey author – Kellie Shields on kellie@caroona.org.au
and highlighted two questions:Quote:“I have had difficulties accessing health and/or aged care services because of prejudice about my sexuality”“I prefer not to disclose my sexuality when engaging with health and/or aged care services”
My complaint/observation was that these questions re-enforce the common misconception that the T in LBGTI is about sexual identification/preference. My issue talking with my GP is not my sexuality – but rather the gender I prefer to present.
I’m in the camp that believe that grouping T with the gay community in this way was was on balance a very bad move. Its been discussed at length in these forums here (and elsewhere) – but i acknowledge we don’t all agree on this point.
Trans community splits from GBLIQ
http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F319/1980-980We also touched on the sexuality focus in the aged care discussion here:
LGBTI aged care on government agenda
http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F408/4685-685Putting it crudely, I think the primary issue with aged care for us is being allowed to present and be treated with respect in our preferred gender. It isn’t being free to persue our sexual preferences. Though for some, granted, the concern may be both.
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Quote:Who actually wrote the above opinion please, anyone know?
I do feel that if you copy an article you should at least attribute the source. Incidentally this often will speak volumes about the level of editorial control that has been applied to the article….
The article is by Julie Burchill
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As Bambi says everyone is different.
But I want to add my voice to Portia’s observation
“I have seen enough people undergo “treatment” and the changes that it brings to realise that you yourself cannot always see the effects. “Whether the changes you perceive in your mind are real or not is something we can leave to Psychologists to argue about.
To those who observe you from the outside there are very distinct changes that occur in the way you behave and react. The change is anything but “all physical”.I have been here for a long time now (sighs) with many I know going past me on high hormone doses pursuing their journey to SRS.
It is an observed fact that people behave differently as their mind or body responds to the changing hormone balance.
If someone is undergoing “treatment” they are very very (did I say very?) likely to change their behaviour at some point in the journey. When you are close to people and know them well you can see these changes.But it is also very true that those changing are frequently blind to what is happening to them.
Not only are they blind to the change – what is worse they will argue that it hasn’t happened.
I tend to call things as they are (well as I perceive them).
As a result I have been rejected as a friend by many just for pointing out these changes. I don’t understand why this is the case.We could go on and discuss how much these emotional changes result in the isolation and purging of friends that is so common amongst those undergoing “treatment”. But that wasn’t Chloe’s question. Another thread… another time….
Given the fog that clouds many minds perhaps the best way to answer Chloe’s question about “the effects it has had on your ‘ability & drive’ to succeed” is to suggest the question was asked of the wrong people. Instead of asking “those of you who are using HRT ” it may be more objective to ask those close to those on HRT if they have observed a change in drive. As Portia has observed – I think the answer is going to be “yes”.
I also suggest caution, as most of the observations I have shared relate to those who are on a journey to have SRS. Chloe writes “As I don’t believe myself to be at either end of the gender spectrum, I cannot argue that it is imperative for me to undertake HRT. ” Maybe we don’t have so much evidence of the effect of HRT delivered in that target population.
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If I could nudge this discussion to possibly more fertile areas, without derailing it….
Communities are everywhere
The reality, as Pamela and Chantelle have acknowledged is that human society spawns communities readily.As others have observed, there are many communities created specifically by those who are gender diverse – from the clusters of support groups through to the internet meeting places.
Maybe we might be moved to question not “are we a community?” – but rather why there are so many.
Why so many?
I think what differentiates all these communities is also what makes it difficult to have just one community.Each community defines itself by a formal or informal statement of who can participate. This can be in terms of gender, geographical area, status, and so on. So we see communities ranging from a support group for Transexuals in Western Sydney to world wide web sites embracing crossdressers.
As the Wikkipedia definition of community I quoted earlier states:
In human communities…a number of … conditions may be present and common, affecting the identity of the participants and their degree of cohesiveness.
The way I interpret this is:
[ul]A tightly defined community is more likely to be strongly bonded with a enhanced feeling of belonging amongst its members.
A tightly defined community will project a clearer and more defined identity to society.
A tightly defined community is more likely to adopt specific labels to describe its identity
[/ul]Choosing our communities
As individuals we choose to either associate with a particular community and be part of it, or ignore it.One reason for choosing not to associate with a particular community may be because you don’t fit with the demographic of ‘acceptable’ participants.
But my experience of most transgender communities is that they are, at least on the surface, very welcoming and inclusive.
Maybe more frequently the issue is that a particular community has a public identity that you don’t want to be associated with.
Or the community adopts a label to describe its identity which is not a label you wish to apply to yourself.Do we need a single Transgender Community?
A community with an identity so neutral that everyone can associate with it, and limits on participation that exclude no one, is unlikely to project a feeling of belonging. And that is probably the reason why no single transgender group seems to dominate, to the point of being “the transgender community”.
I think this is what Portia was hinting at when she wrote:
The “Tg Community” is trying to gather a whole range of gender diverse people together under one solitary umbrella but we are all so different.
As an aside, TgR is perhaps very close to being such a neutral, open community. But I detect that membership is more determined by a need for help and support than by a feeling of belonging. Perhaps I need to print some TgR T-Shirts!!!
In another thread Peter wrote
“One of the things that strikes me is the lack of communication that has historically occurred between different parts of our community.”Perhaps we can rephrase this to say that there is a lack of communication between various communities that embrace the gender diverse.
I observe one final aspect of a tightly defined community with a clear sense of identity and belonging.
[ul]
A tightly defined community has narrow interests and is reluctant to communicate. Such communities will often resist the efforts of other similar communities, ignoring in the process what might be in their common good.[/ul]I’m starting to feel there is a role for a neutral open “Transgender Community” as a conduit for such communication between the various more “specialised” communities. Not a community that everyone feels they specifically belong to, but a community that represents the common identity that would allow us to communicate more effectively.
So, yes – perhaps we do need a “Transgender Community” – and no, there isn’t one that quite fits this bill at the moment.
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Quote:I respect & expect that Amanda-Adrian may wish to reply to my response above.
I’ve exchanged emails with Chloe and there appears to have been quite a bit of misunderstanding plus a bit of difference of opinion. The former is frustrating and the latter to be expected and valued.
For the record
[ul]If you are opening a discussion and don’t want to make a personal point – then it may be better to withhold from presenting your own views. [/ul][ul]If you ask a question about something members are know to disagree about (like community) then you are encouraging us to explore our differences. It doesn’t build consensus. [/ul]
Where there is known disagreement maybe one positive approach is to try and show how unimportant the topic being disagreed about actually is.That was what I was trying to do (perhaps with poor effect) in my post.
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Quote:I’m starting to think that in fact describing ‘us’ as a ‘community’ is pointless, unhelpful & misguided.
In his excellent keynote address ( http://www.genderrights.org.au/Downloads/2012_QLD_Keynote_Address.pdf ) Peter highlights the importance of focusing on common ground and building on it.
The talk about community has potentially the makings of just another reason for us to all disagree with each other.
But on this point I want to make a stand in defence of the word “community” which I think is being unfairly used in a divisive way.So let’s start with the common ground for what we understand by the word “community”. Wikipedia tells us that one meaning of community is
Quote:a group of interacting living organisms sharing a populated environment. A community is a group or society, helping each other.
In human communities, intent, belief, resources, preferences, needs, risks, and a number of other conditions may be present and common, affecting the identity of the participants and their degree of cohesiveness.The word “community” is derived from the Old French communité which is derived from the Latin communitas (cum, “with/together” + munus, “gift”), a broad term for fellowship or organized society
The most important message here for those who want to shun being in a community in favour of just being individuals in the big pool of “mainstream” society is that communities already exist within society and are formed by normal people in need of fellowship. The catholic church is a community in Australia, as is the Italian community, the Sydney Swans fan club, Same Same and even TgR. Yes everyone reading this post is already part of a Transgender Community – TgR.
To form communities in society is human, and being in one community does not generally affect your ability to be in any other community. Wanting to be seen as ‘just’ another member of greater society is a good reason for being part of communities, not a reason against it.
There may be those who want to do life alone, not associate with others having similar needs preferences and risks. But to describe such a life choice as normal doesn’t seem reasonable to me. We all need fellowship – the more so if our life journey contains shared hurdles and challenges.
Quote:Does anyone else have any thoughts on the idea of describing ourselves as normal people with variant gender understanding already within one society, as opposed to describing ourselves as individual variants within a somehow disconnected society i.e; the ‘Tg community’.I am a normal person, therefore like all other normal people I associate with communities. One community I associate with is the Transgender Community because only by involving myself with other gender diverse people can I learn more about myself. It also provides an avenue for me to provide fellowship and support to others. Telling someone I am part of the Tg Community should have no different impact from telling them I am in the Italian Community, or the catholic Church.
Finally Peter also stresses the advantages to be obtained by identifying common ground both within the community and between the community and other organisations and bodies in society. The point is an excellent one, but it will become impossible if we all insist on not being a community and just going stealth as an unconnected group of individuals lost in the big pool of society.
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A good observation!
I had the arm tan pointed out to me very early on..not just because of the “girl look” but because it doesn’t look good on the beach no matter what togs you put on. But of equal concern is the “V” of sun tan I used to have below the chin – the legacy of wearing open collar shirts.
I now either sun bake in something suitable skimpy – or alternatively apply lots of sun tan lotion to my arms and upper chest. Gone are the days thankfully when having a sun tan was equated to “being healthy”
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Quote:It has been said we are all individuals and that is a simple truth but it does not excuse us from a responsibility to each other , we all have the common thread of gender issues.
One of the things my partner finds irritating about her association with our ‘community’ is the way we are prone to talk about ourselves. Not only do we see ourselves as individuals – but we assume that others must be more interested in us than in any common gender issues.
That underlies the frustration I expressed earlier in this thread about people speaking on behalf of me, but in fact speaking about and for themselves.
It isn’t exactly a proof – but if you search all the posts in these forums there are over 13,000 that contain the word “I” – but just 4,000 with the word “we”.
If we want an effective voice, then we will have to learn to think of ourselves as a coherent community “we” – rather than as a set of disadvantaged individuals “me”.
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Wandering off-topic seems to be on the rise again, and as it’s time for New Year’s resolutions, can we all try a bit harder please????
The most frequent problem now seems to be off-topic question asking.
Most of the posts we have to split (or mark as “poor” if time is short) ask a question.
What is wrong with this?
Well, the problem is that the question asked is NOT the one being discussed in the thread.
I’m sure most regular forum readers will have seen this type of post.For example (hypothetically):
In a thread providing information on places to go… someone posts
“I’ll be in Sydney this weekend. Anyone want to party with me?”
or
In a thread started with the question “Should I tell my doctor?” …. someone posts
“My doctor prescribed Wonderdrug for me yesterday. Does anyone else take this?”OK – it sounds funny – but it seriously devalues the coherence and long term value of our moderated forums (and creates work for moderators).
So… please review your replies before pressing Submit.
And make sure if there are any questions in your post – they are NOT invitations to others to answer YOUR question.Of course if you have a different question you want to ask – there is nothing to stop you asking it in a new topic thread. Just hit the New Topic button and not Reply.
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As Chloe has requested here are the aspirations that were expressed by TgR members in the 2011 TgR survey. They may be a help in determining what message you want to tell society.
The top ten themes in the responses were:
• Acceptance by others
• Changing physical appearance
• Opportunities to express gender
• Partners and Relationships
• Social opportunities
• Money
• Passing and appearance
• To be a woman (i.e. change birth sex)
• Work
• To go out in publicThe full responses are represented in the word cloud below:
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Quote:It is time for law reform, it is time to be heard, now is the time to change, and that is what this discussion is all about, how we can make transition easier for individuals to receive better and more comprehensive health care and easier access to gender recognition.
Karly,
With all respect for the fact that you are prepared to actually front up and participate in what is one of the few opportunities extended to the community to shape their future.I have to be a questioning voice.
Why is it that law reform is always so high on the transgender agenda?
I fail to see how any change in the law will increase the acceptance of a broad spectrum of gender diverse by society, partners and family. I don’t see that the law determines the quality and quantity of gender training received by GPs.
Granted the law may coerce a few into behaving a bit better towards us, but until the majority of the gender diverse can come out of the closet with confidence and be embraced by family and society, can we claim to have made any significant progress?
It is a fact that until society attitudes change we will always be discriminated against, no matter what the letter of the law says.
Am I missing the point here? Is there actually a genuine opportunity to influence the expectations and attitudes of society? If so, please excuse my skepticism.
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Quote:Given that I don’t accept the premise of gender on which the original post appears to have been made – I now need to look at the other questions and decide which I can address from my gender viewpoint.
The second question was…
Quote:If the gender continuum is a reality then at what point do we identify a person as (trans)gendered? Surely by definition, to be Tg requires an acceptance that there are two polar opposites but it is frequently suggested otherwise.In my previous post I identified that a continuum of gender expressing femininity and masculinity exists – so this question can be answered.
Long time members of this site will know how much I hate the labels that we so like giving each other. The best time to use a label is, in my opinion, when it doesn’t actually matter exactly what the label means!!
There have been long discussions in this forum debating if we actually need a label to embrace everyone who feels they are part of the gender diverse community.
viewforum.php?f=319
In the 2011 TgR survey we split down the middle – those who feel we need a label to describe ourselves to others. And those who don’t.Now, if you are the 50% who have a use for a label. Then it matters what the label means.
Transgender is one such “umbrella” label.
The rumors of the death of the transgender label ( http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F319/4147-147 ) were somewhat exaggerated – it is still with us. But we have to accept that transgender like (my pet hate) trans and cisgender are labels that have been created to be inclusive. They are probably so inclusive as to be overlapping!! Their advantage is that, hopefully, they avoid people focusing on specific (and just as poorly defined) sub-groups.So does using the term transgender imply that there have to be polar opposites for the transgender to lie in between?
I think not.My view is that Transgender is a label you opt in to.
You define yourself directly as transgender only because you consider the role you are comfortable with in society (your gender) is not exactly what others might expect from your physical sex. It doesn’t matter if you are right, or how much your preferred role is different.
You also indirectly define yourself as transgender if you assign some other label to your gender diversity, like crossdresser, transexual, gender queer…. none of these terms have watertight or agreed definitions – but transgender/trans is safer because it is less specific and therefore less prone to misinterpretation.Now I know this answer could be viewed as better placed in the labels forum. So let me say, it isn’t my purpose here to open up a discussion as to whether we need a term like Transgender, but rather to answer Chloes’s question about the definition of the term.
My answer to Chloe is that the point we identify a person as transgendered is when they directly or indirectly choose to associate themselves with that label.
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Quote:The body of a male with the soul of a woman. …..What do others think?
Soul is a difficult concept for me…as I have only previously thought about in the context of religion.
Rushing to Google it tells me that soul is
Quote:1) The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
2) A person’s moral or emotional nature or sense of identity.Definition 1 is the one I am familiar with. But my transgender yearnings don’t come from a spiritual or immaterial and certainly not immortal source. It simply reflects a desire to act out a different role in our society than that expected of a “proper male”.
Definition 2 is broader, and I can understand that someone could consider that the role they play in society reflects their inner sense of identity. But to demand that that sense of identity has to be the same as (the soul of) a woman is restrictive and artificially limits the potential choice.
So I can accept, if you want, that my transgender nature comes in part from my soul. But it is my soul – not the soul of a woman.
On reflection that doesn’t advance my understanding much!