[Adrian]

At the end of the day I expect the views on this depend a lot on your “faith” in science.

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As science begins to unravel the genetic codes, discoveries are beginning to be made as to (some) of the reasons why we are as we are. An example might be; a gene or genes that help to explain some peoples diposition to be heavier than others – this reseach exists.

There is an important difference I see between the quest for a scientific explanation of gender diversity and, for instance, weight diversity. With weight you can weigh the patient, and you can look at their genes to find correlations.

With gender diversity there is nothing you can measure and be sure it is an analog of gender. Obviously you can recruit a cohort of post-operative transexuals assuming that everyone who goes on this journey is actually gender dysphoric (a debate for another time) – but that doesn’t give you scientific understanding of all gender diversity.

We had this discussion a few months back and I think there was agreement that gender is in the head and cannot be measured objectively. So any scientific research will be “wobbly” because it has to rely on some assessment of the subject’s diversity.

I can’t see Joe Blogs being moved much by “wobbly” research. But I acknowledge others may have faith/hope in this strategy that I lack.

[Adrian]

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I have read a lot of disagreement with the use of the science in our quest to educate the Government and the public about Transgenderism. I have also read that most of our community don’t want to be recognised as having a psychological disorder, but unfortunately I feel that if you want to convince the public that we are not all psycho then don’t you think it may behove us to use the science to convince them.

Just a thought not trying to upset anyone just trying to keep the message clear of emotion.

I understand the dilemma of convincing people you are normal when there isn’t a test to prove it. But I think the best argument that we are normal people is the absence of just such a test.

Do we seriously think there is going to be a medical test that identifies why our gender is not binary – when not being binary is just normal variation in the human species.

A quick read of the history of apartheid in South Africa will show the consequence of seeking a test for something that is normal…- when there was a “test” to determine if you were white or black – and all those in between got a very rough ride. (Well actually those who were tested as black got an even rougher ride)

Unless there is a miracle breakthrough – the science will probably struggle to demonstrate what makes it imperative that some people change their birth sex to avoid gender dysphoria (“transexual”), and perhaps what leads people to be born generally infertile with ambiguous physical sex (“intersex”).

For the rest of the gender diverse (a majority which I think includes me) the science will label us as a deviant normal people to be treated like all others that society considers deviant. I’ve had enough experience of being labelled a fetishist, or part-timer from sections of our own community – without giving society the weapon to label me the same way.

A scientific test would probably not even be welcomed by those who identify as transexual as it would probably result in a much narrower eligibility to surgery than is currently the case…of course I’m guessing a bit here.

I wrote earlier in this thread that I want to stop science looking for a reason why I am like I am. I don’t see myself as a guinea pig with a disease that I need science to cure. So I want to see a message to society that depathologises gender diversity – not one that switches it from a psychological disorder to a medical disorder!

[Adrian]

In another thread in a self-confessed rambling post Jane_s wrote something I personally think is very perceptive and very relevant to the “what are you willing to do” discussion.

In this forum
http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F439/5165-165
she wrote

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I think that perhaps, though they may be filled with empathy for a movement that might allow them the social freedom to feel better about themselves, many of the people in our ‘community’ are also looking after ‘me’.

Having 24 hours a day available to champion trans rights is no victory if that availability came from being dismissed from work for espousing one’s views.

Being “out and proud” is a hollow victory if one is subsequently isolated, ostracised or alone for being so.

We may make that choice and perhaps should be applauded for it but we should not be criticised if we choose otherwise.

It rings very true with “informal” discussions I’ve had with my partner.
Obviously a discussion coloured by the large number of hours she sees me spend on TgR and events like TransFormal.

We all of us have to make life balance choices about how we can best live with our gender diversity, discharge our obligations to family and friends, and help others along their journeys.
Looking after “me” sounds a bit selfish, but looking after “me and those close to me” has to be the first priority – and that for many is enough of a challenge!

[Adrian]

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I only offered these links to show what is happening in the UK

I wasn’t for one moment questioning the value of sharing information – which is why I went to some trouble to split your post out into a separate thread where it can be easily found.

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I guess the labels are a little out of date.

I don’t think so… I understood the document clearly when I read it.

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what is the remedy

I don’t want to hijack Pamela’s thread on the UK documents – but I think I answered your question. I said (or tried to say) that a pre-requisite for anyone taking on a role where they act as a voice for the gender diverse is that they must have a clear understanding of the demographics of those they are representing.

To represent others is an honor and is a relationship built on trust.

To build that trust with the wider gender diverse community I think one has to display a sensitivity to the issues faced by a wide range of people.
And sadly the labels used may affect the building of trust with some.

For instance (yanking this back to the topic!!), presenting an article on the transexual journey as representative of the gender diverse is the sort of thing I would try to avoid.

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misrepresentation is a thorn in the side

For me personally – you couldn’t have put it better.

When one represents people correctly you will find they support the message (well I will).
This is something that no end of complaining about lack of support on these forums will achieve.

[Adrian]

January 2013 – we started the New Year at Glebe with a pleasant meal – where the only complaint was about the ineffectual/non-existent air conditioning on a balmy evening. A special welcome to Nicki and Miss Linda Russel.

Here is the picture –

[Adrian]

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Found another interesting link from the UK for a document generated for the information of MP’s to help them understand Transgenderism.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/insidestory.pdf

I hope this isn’t the path for MPs to understand transgenderism – because the document is all about transexualism.

Part of the battle most of us face is the frequent portrayal of gender diversity to the public as being transexualism. So that transexual = transgender.

OK so maybe it’s only a label problem …but I’d like to be left with at least one label that represents all of us…otherwise it just gets hard to talk about us.
(Though I acknowledge that many of the people surveyed a year ago didn’t see the necessity for such a label).

Labels, or no labels, we have to all understand the actual demographics of our diversity first. then we can talk on behalf of many.

Every time we confuse the needs of a specific sub-population with the needs of the gender diverse population in total – we just confuse ourselves and confuse others.

Sorry – but I for one would rapidly loose faith in anyone campaigning on my behalf if they misrepresent me in this way . 😥

[Adrian]

I have heard from Kellie again.
She writes:

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Hi Adrian Amanda,

I have had discussions with the research analyst regarding your feedback
about the UnitingCare Ageing LGBTI Survey and the questions that
re-enforce the common misconception that the T in LBGTI is about sexual
identification/preference.

I have updated the link with the changes as mentioned.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/LGBTIsurvey

Regarding the integrity of the data and research, the change is valid as
it allows all the diverse groups of participants to enter into the
survey. The data collected will still have the whole structure of the
survey without changing the characteristics of the data. The results
will relate the data to the definitions of the different participating
groups and remain consistent while holding its validity.

Once again thank you for taking the time to give me feedback and have
taken these learning’s “on-board”,

Best Wishes, Kellie

[Adrian]

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Why was Amanda able to get 423 Tg people to participate in the TgR survey?

Well…being modest I guess it wasn’t because of my personal charisma and leadership qualities…..
😥

So, in the absence of a final question that said “Tell us why you persevered right to the end of the survey answering our questions” you just have to guess.

But I suggest it wasn’t because I and a few others did all the hard work as you suggest.There have been other occasions where I have put in a lot of work and achieved very little response.

I think it was WHAT we were doing that attracted people not WHO was doing it.

And WHAT we were doing was opening a door into what was, and still is, a very closed and unknown sub-group in society. I speculate that the reason many others responded to the survey – was the same reason I put a lot of effort into creation of it…

We all want to know more about others who are like us – to help us understand ourselves.

That is my theory – but it has an obvious weakness. If everyone participated because they wanted to validate themselves against the gender diverse population in general – then why didn’t they all rush to read the results when they were published?

So there is a second reason – one that was acknowledged by many in their survey responses.

The very act of answering questions about yourself helps in understanding oneself

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Here’s another thought.

Something to ponder – but there are in fact two somethings to ponder!….do I have to address both???

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we don’t have a visible product

I acknowledge what a “charmed” introduction to presenting gender diversity to the public Chloe has had. But we mustn’t forget that for a very large number of gender diverse being visible is not a reasonable option. And even if we are visible as people – the one thing that is common – our gender diversity – isn’t exactly visible – not in the same way as two gay guys holding hands and kissing in public is!

Still a lack of anything tangible to market has never held back the marketing departments I have worked with.

Now I’ve answered both topics in the thread… I can finish

[Adrian]

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….there was a toxic build up in a certain area. This was anough to reduce my immune system to create a blood infection. Confirmed by a doctor.
Serious enough to have a few hours in hospital to get a dose of IV antibiotics and oral after that. This was at full dose of BB. Testosterone without androgen blockers was down to 4, prevoiusly before BB at 22.

I discontinued BB and now just take small doses of about 20% manufacturers recomendations now.

This is a timely reminder to all those reading this thread that products like Bountiful Breasts are NOT placebo medicines – they contain real, and potentially harmful active ingredients.

Do not tinker around taking these products thinking it is all potential upside and no possible downside. There are health risks that may be serious – depending on your own personal circumstances.

As this is a public forum visible to the entire Internet I would like to give a message to anyone reading about the results Jeorgette has achieved.

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seek advice either in person or by researching on the internet – don’t rely on any product advertising.
weigh up the risks and benefits of taking FDA approved controlled medications vs products such as BB
always tell your GP – not just if you want a prescription, but also so they can appropriately monitor your health.

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Has BB properity blend changed?

This is exactly why I think controlled drugs are a safer way of achieving the changes you may need. They still aren’t “safe” – but at least their composition is tightly controlled.

[Adrian]

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We answer our “problem”with acceptance of who we really are not scientific definition.

Totally agree.

The trouble with “scientific discoveries” is that people take them as being black and white, true and false. But most medical research is based on probability and sample sizes. It isn’t an exact science.

So I imagine we could find people latching onto some poorly executed research and labeling gender diverse people as having some defect or abnormality.

What if the theory yields a test that would show if you were gender diverse?
How would you feel if you “failed” the test – but inside you knew you were gender diverse.
It would be you vs the scientific community.

The fact that the research could be flawed, or doesn’t apply to everyone wouldn’t worry the average punter – who likes and seeks simplicity in their life.

Well, few of us who are gender diverse could describe our life as simple.
And the last thing we want is people trying to simplify it in ways that could divide us, could make some people feel inferior to others, open the prospect of a “treatment”….

Now I need to think how I could stop the “do-gooders” carrying out the research I don’t want!

[Adrian]

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Hi everyone, just thought that Liz might like the technical explanation of why we are Transgendered. This is Australian research conducted by a Professor Vincent Harley at the Prince Henry’s Institute.

On the contrary. What you have posted – whilst fascinating research – only applies to the cohort of male-to-female transexuals they studied.

As we know – that cohort represents only a small percentage of those who identify to some degree with being transgender – or as I prefer to say – gender diverse. Feeling ‘trapped in the wrong body’ is not something that characterises the entire transgender community.

So the research provides no clue why the vast majority of us are as we are. Back to where we were……

[Adrian]

Ok – I’ll breathe life back into this thread by adding my thoughts…. as I do complain too much sometimes about the messages I hear

I don’t want to talk to society about men wanting to become women, or about men who like to wear skirts.
I don’t want to campaign for changes to the law nor do I want to create conflict with those who hold genuine religious views.
These are all messages that may tell society about others – but they don’t help people understand me.

So what benefits do think we could all gain from the right message?

a) I think we would all benefit if the public understands what it means to be gender diverse
– because everyone in our community is gender diverse.
b) I think we would all benefit from the public being more aware of how they are forcing us to live secret lives
– because most of our community has to keep secrets from someone.
c) I think all those who are not retired would benefit from workplaces being tolerant of gender diversity
– because many in our community are either unemployed or hide their diversity from their employer.
d) I think we would all benefit from being able to have meaningful conversations about our gender diversity with GPs and other medical staff
– because so many of our community do not currently seek or do not receive appropriate advice.
e) Finally the big one… I think we would all benefit if society was more accepting of gender diversity
– because so many of our lives are affected by the rejection of loved ones, family and friends.

That leads me to the message I want to tell the world.
I want to tell society about all of us:
I hope this is a message that would deliver benefit to a large number of gender diverse people.

a) We are gender diverse. [ul]A person’s physical sex is a biological fact, but our sex does not dictate how masculine or feminine we are. People exhibit a wide range of characteristics and behaviours from feminine to masculine irrespective of their physical sex. For us, such diversity of gender is both natural and normal.[/ul]
b) We are a largely hidden part of society;[ul] because society is generally intolerant of femininity in men or masculinity in women. Many of us have to keep our true nature secret and consequently experience emotional discomfort and unnecessary unhappiness. We want to be free to be who we are, not what others want us to be.[/ul]
c) We experience unacceptably high levels of unemployment [ul]although we are no less capable or skilled than others. There is discrimination of employees who appear to fall outside the narrow stereotypes of masculine man and feminine woman. Those in employment often have to hide their diversity from their employer and colleagues to avoid discrimination. We have a right to be treated equitably and our diversity should not prejudice our employment.
[/ul]
d) We lack confidence with our doctors and health care professionals. [ul]Medical practice and research has traditionally been based on simplistic concepts of male and female. As a result there is widespread confusion and ignorance of how manage the health needs of those who fall outside this stereotype. We look to improve outcomes through better education and support for our doctors. Quality health care is a right for everyone including us. [/ul]
e) We seek acceptance in society. [ul]Our partners, families and friends frequently reject us because they don’t understand who we are and they fear what we are not. We look for the opportunity to explain our diversity, reassure the reticent, and build relationships. Through greater understanding will come the acceptance we all seek and deserve.[/ul]

[Adrian]

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Finding a voice seems to be a real problem here, as far as I can tell so far only about 2% of the membership here has expressed any views on this subject. ……… Unless we get any adverse reactions to what we are doing we will just have to assume that we are doing the right thing.

Just being a devil’s advocate….not because I want to damp the the enthusiasm being displayed, but because I want people to go forward on a solid footing.

Is there not a distinct possibility that the lack of input from 98% of the members could be construed as an adverse reaction?

If 2% of the members were to complain about what “the voice” was doing – would that be a minority complaint because 98% said nothing – or would it indicate that “the voice” was not doing the right thing?

What do we really expect people to post – something like
“go right ahead – say anything you like on my behalf – I don’t care what it is you tell the world about me – I’m just grateful someone is prepared to speak for me.”

Many people I suspect will be asking themselves “what is all this going to achieve for me?”

Perhaps those who see “the voice” as an important first step, could post a compelling argument for the 98% as to why they should support those who want to communicate.

This is more positive than berating the 98% for not posting.
And I think such an exercise might indirectly help clarify the focus of any communication

[Adrian]

Quote:

I could probably start a new link to propose the following but I see little point as it is following my original thinking.

As always I would have preferred a new thread because talking about communicating is likely to lead down different paths than the discussion you started about our voice. If it does diverge then I’ll have to do a time-consuming split. So as always – if in doubt please start a new topic…..please

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How community forms it’s bonds and commonality is through communications it prevents us from wasting efforts on that which is already being done . It allows people to develop new ideas that move us forward.

I couldn’t agree more. It is why I started TrannyRadio all those years ago to open up lines of communication between people. If we don’t communicate with each other then we increase our isolation and closeting.

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What we need is a transgender news service or gender diverse if you like.
Some where that we can find out and report what is going on in and around our community. This would give us the opportunity to form community values and bonds and gain much needed coherence. We could know what is being done for us or to us.

As with most good ideas – this has been mentioned before. A few years ago I was approached by Kathy_1 about TgR supporting greater co-ordination between all the micro communities. She saw, as you have, that so much was happening in isolation – and the channels for coordination and cooperation were non existent.

As a a result I set up some rudimentary infrastructure on the site for Kathy to use – but sadly nothing visible happened. Before repeating the exercise it would be worth examining “why” but I don’t want to go into that here.

Setting up structures that allow people to communicate is in my view the easy bit. Encouraging people who are used to living only in their micro-community to communicate is, I expect, a lot harder. Kristyana, you have expressed frustration about the TgR micro-community not communicating on their own forums – multiply that challenge many times if you talk about propagating the news and information for the entire Australian gender diverse community.

Which is all a bit off topic for a thread on the community voice…I know…sighs….

[Adrian]

I’m happy to be a messenger but generally am reluctant to raise my head above the anonymity of being ‘webmistress” – unless I’m confident that my message is inclusive and representative of others.

In another thread I have voiced my concern about the value of messengers firing off at random with whatever message they personally feel motivated to present. Granted it will get a few people some visibility in the wider community as transgender voices – but if the voices are all saying different things have you actually made any progress?

Currently a lot of the messages I hear people suggesting are not messages I want the public to associate with me – so hence I stay quiet.

One of my motivations in performing the TgR survey in 2011 was to find the common ground – the real messages we need to communicate. It did come up with a few suggestions – but I was waiting to see if others also validated the messages as being correct. As we have observed in another thread – that hasn’t happened in a big way yet.

So whilst I’m a willing messenger – I’m sitting on the fence till we stop talking about what we want to say as individuals, and start talking the messages that would benefit us in general.