[Adrian]

I’m not too good at responding to multi-question posts. So I’ll tackle just one part for now.

Quote:

The concept of gender requires polar binary opposites. Without points of reference there is no gender to be defined, a minimum of two possibilities is required. Without the gender binary a continuum cannot exist, or can it?

The concept of gender also requires an agreed definition – or otherwise any discussion will be at cross purposes.

A very elaborate definition has previously been posted in this forum but I prefer the simpler (but not inconsistent) concept adopted by Monash University.
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html
To make my views clearer here is the definition:

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Sex = male and female

Gender = masculine and feminine

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So in essence:

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

So while your sex as male or female is a biological fact that is the same in any culture, what that sex means in terms of your gender role as a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ in society can be quite different cross culturally. These ‘gender roles’ have an impact on the health of the individual.

In sociological terms ‘gender role’ refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a ‘real man’ in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a ‘real woman’ needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

‘man’ = male sex+ masculine social role

(a ‘real man’, ‘masculine’ or ‘manly’)

‘woman’ = female sex + feminine social role

(a ‘real woman’, ‘feminine’ or ‘womanly’)

When I use this frame of reference to discuss gender I have no need for polar binary opposites. All is required is that society or culture has a concept of masculine and feminine. If we lived in a society where the words masciline and feminine had no meaning – then I think we would live in a society which had no concept of gender.

Masculine and feminine as I understand it in our culture are not end points, and so therefore I disagree with the assertion that Without points of reference there is no gender to be defined. The very fact that we can talk about something being more feminine or masculine implies we are comfortable with a continuum – and that continuum does not need or have any endpoint. I don’t think there is any meaning or value in talking about the “most feminine possible” person.

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Like so many others, I have tried to disentangle sex from gender but without satisfaction (theoretically).

I think the definition I have proposed does that quite elegantly….well it does for me!

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It cannot be claimed that sex & gender should be separated as long as a person wants to appear like the binary opposite sex to their birth (for reasons of clarity I am not including intersex).

That is an assertion with no evidence presented to support it.
The definition of gender allows for those who wish to change their sex (albeit restricted to hormonal differences and external sex organs).

(I also prefer not to complicate the issue by discussing if this is infact not a move from male to female but rather a move from male to intersex).

The definition also allows for femininity or masculinity to be exhibited without there having to be a corresponding change in sex.

Given that I don’t accept the premise of gender on which the original post appears to have been made – I now need to look at the other questions and decide which I can address from my gender viewpoint.

[Adrian]

It’s also available on iView
http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/series/11984

[Adrian]

Quote:

there is no voice to continue efforts to educate people or infom them as to our concerns, dilemmas , challenges etc.

There is a link here to another barely active thread – the 2011 TgR survey.
viewtopic.php?p=21729#21729

I totally agree that if we have a voice it should be for the concerns, dilemmas and challenges of the wider gender diverse community.

I thought the first step in proving a more balanced and less opinionated voice would be to determine what these concerns were.

The TgRsurvey attempted to do that for the “born male” half of the community – and the results pointed to a set of issues many of which are not the current lobbying ‘hot topics’.

But the TgR survey faltered at the point where it needed voices to communicate these concerns, dilemmas and challenges to the wider community. As you say “to not be heard makes us irrelevant”.

Despite the obvious need, there seems to be little interest in being a voice for the broader community. Is it perhaps that the real issues for our community are not as news-worthy/sensational or is it perhaps that they are a lot harder to address than just lobbying for selected legislative changes?

[Adrian]

Quote:

Is there any data on this group of people or are your comments based solely from data about people in transition? I would suggest that many of these invisible people may end up in relationships and therefore would be affected by the marriage equality issue.

No data – but then there wouldn’t be a specific transgender issue in this case. This thread is about the need for a transgender voice – for improving transgender experiences.

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I feel that although you didn’t mention my name you are suggesting that i promoted marriage equality purely for my benefit which is simply not correct.

I was commenting on the original posting – I have no idea what you have been campaigning for, nor what your motives may be for something I don’t know about. But my point was that issue based campaigning for transgenders in general is not necessarily achieving the outcomes needed by the majority of transgender people.

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The underlying feeling i get is you are suggesting that transexual people are selfish and that we have little benefit to the rest of the gender variant community.

A fair summary might be that many causes that benefit primarily transexual people have been pursued without much awareness of the wider community, nor consideration of the effects of such campaigns on the attitudes of the general public towards us. I hardly think that selfish is a word to describe that. I still do detect a lot of elitism amongst those who journey to change their birth sex – and perhaps that blinds many to the wider gender diverse community and its broader needs.

Comes down to educating I guess – both within and outside the community

[Adrian]

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The thread is about our collective voice not directly relating to any one issue , if that is what is drawn from my initial coment there is a misunderstanding.

It does appear that many people find it easier to discuss the absence of a collective voice with regard to a specific issue.

My point was that any collective voice that focuses on issues, and not on awareness and understanding is going to fall way short on delivering the general improvement to the transgender lifestyle we all need.

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With the right voices taking issues of importance to the right people we may be able to establish some systems of help for people who are starting whatever journey they are on. That is something that would involve funding and organization that is it appears none existent as far as I can tell.

You are proposing exactly the type of issues based lobbying that I think may help a few people, but would also probably erode the foundation of acceptance in society we need to build on.

I think Liz was pretty close to the mark when she wrote:

Quote:

I also think it is all about education. Whilst we as a group hide behind closet doors we will neither be seen nor heard.

And when Chloe exhorted us to:

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ask what can you do for your (Tg community)

I think the action we need is to educate and seek acceptance, not to pick on potentially divisive issues, get funding and go lobbying

[Adrian]

This thread started with an observation that, in a debate on the single issue of “same sex marriage” there appeared be no voice from the transgender community.

Others have speculated in this thread why our political voice is ineffective or non-existent and some have urged us to “do better”. My view is more controversial –
I don’t think we need a voice ,
or not one in the terms that I think were understood by the original post.

Why am I so negative about the value of “a voice”?
Over the 15 or so years I’ve been active in the community I have seen many people seeking to be heard at a state or national level. But those who feel their voice should be heard, frequently leave me disappointed by both their motives and message. All too often the voice is from one small part of the transgender spectrum, the message is about an issue that directly affects the person speaking out, and their motive is to achieve a change that will (or would have) benefited them personally. There is nothing altruistic about most of the voices I hear.

Look at the “same sex marriage” issue.
Who stands to benefit in our community?
Surely it is those who perceive themselves as a “woman”, who plan to change their physical sex, and who at the time of surgery are still in a robust marriage. If the gender diverse are a minority – then this subgroup is going to be very small. Historically I would expect to find some of the few affected standing up and lobbying for the change they believe in. And that lobbying would be based the needs of their transsexual journey but probably presented as a transgender issue.

I, like so many others in the transgender community, get no benefit from any message that projects a community seeking to change physical sex.
It just isn’t true – we have statistics to prove it. Post-operative transsexuals are a small part of our community, highly visible during their journey, and often invisible afterwards. But as part of the wider transgender/gender diverse community they don’t have the numbers we often assume. And they certainly don’t carry with them a lot of robust relationships.

There is strong anecdotal evidence that the “transsexual” journey is a big challenge to any relationship – and few get to the point of wanting to fly to Thailand for surgery with a partner at their side. The single sex marriage issue is looking for a voice that will represent only a small part of the community and benefit a small number of people.

So should the wider community support this lobbying though some sort of community voice? After all altruism is a good thing.

This is where I adopt what I hope is a well-founded, but I expect, controversial position.
My answer is NO.

I believe that the number one issue affecting the whole of our community is acceptance of transgender/gender diverse people in society, and flowing on from that acceptance by partners and family. If these two issues were addressed I think every other inequality and irritation we face would resolve itself in time. I’m encouraged to see how much acceptance has changed in the last 15 years…and I hope to see a lot more change.

Does campaigning politically for issues such as single sex marriage increase our acceptance in society?

No! I believe the opposite. I think the single issue campaigns focusing on the legal obstacles to changing physical sex are re-enforcing a perception in society that transgender issues are to do with men becoming women (and visa versa). This patently is not true. The vast majority of transgender people are uninterested/unwilling/unable to change their physical sex. Re-enforcing the perception may break more relationships than it will save. And what is the use of being able to change sex and stay married if you aren’t in a relationship anymore?

I also think we have to have realistic expectations. Others have observed that we are a minority. This means the changes we seek have to be carefully chosen so as to win the support of society at large. If our primary goal is to enhance our acceptance by society then we need to act in a way that doesn’t unnecessarily alienate significant other groups. I believe that many single issue campaigns paint us as trouble makers in the eyes of the ‘majority’ rather than as a group who wants to be accepted.

I don’t think that acceptance will come through having a voice – though a few well selected and well placed messages can help. Our lobbying should be to create awareness and understanding as a precursor to acceptance and then change.

We don’t all need to turn into lobbyists attacking the system, but rather need to come out of our closets, be proud of who we are, deserve respect from others, and cease being an isolated, hidden, minority.

If there is a voice for our community I want it to be representative of all the gender diverse, whether they were born male or female, whether they want to change their physical sex or not; I want it to speak with reason; and I want it to attract the respect and acceptance of those who hear the message.

I know they are rather grand aims, but at the start of a new year one tends to be somewhat idealistic about the future!

[Adrian]

I know this is an unmoderated forum – but if you are interested there is already a long running thread on how you derived your current name
here:
http://forum.tgr.net.au/cms/forum/F149/1168-168

My specific interest was to sample how many of us were given a unisex name at birth – hence the poll. Perhaps it is time for me to close off the experiment with the unexpected answer that 27% of nearly 100 respondents had a unisex name.
This was far far higher than I expected… or perhaps reflects an underlying gender ambiguity in the names we give our children.

[Adrian]

An interesting idea… and in theory achievable as the “hot” topic list is a search unrelated to the scoring of reputations.

There have been quite a few votes on past posts – and it is indeed a shame that they are “wasted”.

However finding an algorithm that doesn’t just list the top 10 scoring topics of all time is important . New topics have to get into the list – even if they haven’t yet reached the dizzy heights of popular threads that are dormant and 5 years old.

At the moment the thread has to be active – i.e. with recent posts… for it to go into the ballot for top 10 hot topics.

I’d have to change that to active meaning it has been voted on recently….
let me think about it……

[Adrian]

December 2012 – another pleasant evening in Glebe though cucumbers figured too heavily in the conversation. A big welcome to Samantha who attended for the first time.

Here is the picture – unfortunately Kristen’s camera was on a most festive setting so the colours are…..unusual.
Catherine wasn’t hiding – she had to leave earlier…

[Adrian]

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What I would like to know is how someone has gotten a job not transition on the job transitioning on the job is not the same as applying at say pizza hut !!!!

I think this is a good question. I have no personal experience, but I do have the benefit of many years watching the varying employment outcomes amongst those who decide to legally transition their birth sex.

The main issue I observe is that in today’s employment market prior experience is king. Granted a few qualifications don’t go amiss, but by and large employers will look to see if you have a past track record of effectively doing what they want done.

Unfortunately the popular desire to transition and then cover the tracks of one’s past ‘male’ life (stealth) is completely incompatible with maintaining a credible employment history. The very act of changing one’s name orphans all that past experience.

I know, in some professions where having the qualification is a ticket to play there are formal routes to change the name on your qualifications. But in the vast majority of cases where unskilled or semi-skilled work is sought the only options are to hide the prior experience – or to implicitly acknowledge one’s sex/name change during the application process. Neither of these options are good, and both open the applicant up to being silently discriminated against.

What concerns me is that to many this employment hurdle comes as a complete surprise – as they suddenly find that getting a job isn’t as straightforward as it was before. I wonder how much support is actually provided by those who guide and mentor transsexuals? The only advice I hear is to “transition on the job”? – great if it is possible but no help if it is not!

Certainly there are plenty of “good news” stories from those who change their name “on the job”.
But like Chelsea I would be interested to hear how those who didn’t transition on the job managed to fill the gaps in their employment history. Or are they all silently in stealth mode now and unable/unwilling to share their experiences?

[Adrian]

What a long post Chloe, and so many points we could discuss!
As for where it belongs – just let it run and the moderators can always move house.

As Eleanor Roosevelt said:
Great minds discus ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people

Let’s discuss ideas….

The idea that you might be transsexual.
[ul]
You write “I am male & psychologically that’s O.K.” – so I suggest you drop the transsexual label.

When I look in the mirror unclothed what I see is as ambiguous as how I often present in public. It’s interesting to see the term shemale crop up in this thread as it is certainly a label with a very bad press. The term is mostly used to describe others (on a certain type of web site) so I find it challenging to hear others use it to describe themselves. But as what I see in the mirror is a reflection of my inner makeup – and you could call it a shemale (or perhaps a manshe?).

Our big advantage is that the mirror often lies – and what we see is often what we want to see. But if you are comfortable with that – then physical form is not the issue – and so transexual isn’t a destination.
[/ul]

The idea that it matters when others read your gender
[ul]
This is a puzzle for me. As I go about my daily life as “me” I rarely spare a thought for what others are reading – because I have learnt that their visualization of me and the conclusions they may jump to are not a factor in my happiness.

About 15 years ago when I was setting out on my journey with Seahorse I wrote (on a long gone web site) that I saw “being Amanda” as a bit of a show – like acting – a conscious switching of personas. At that time, I was I think more interested in what others saw (the show) than projecting my true personality with any accuracy. Well to be honest I don’t think I knew who I was then. That was the glorious time for me of uncomfortable heels, formal dressing, and going to Balls.

At some point in the journey I stopped dressing a certain way for others, and started just dressing the way I wanted to be. The show was over for me.

So maybe the worry about others not reading you as female is something that will pass with time. After all you are relatively new on this journey. Others on this site have spent a lifetime trying to cover up the fact they are gender diverse, and so are perhaps more comfortable slipping through society with a degree off stealth.

Ask yourself which is more important – the way you feel about your gender, or the way others perceive you. Is the show fundamental to you? Maybe it is at the moment.
[/ul]

The idea that you can wear any clothing and be recognized as feminine
[ul]
This flows on from the “show” but you mention it a couple of times. Let me be the person to prick that balloon – someone has to!

To get to the heart of this dream I think you have to question why it is that genetic women who were out the back when God handed out the looks and body shape packs never get addressed as “Sir”. I know well – as I have a gender diverse sister who wears drab clothes, looks drab, and is anything but feminine. BUT with all that baggage she is still considered instantly by others as a “she”. I’ve watched my sister all my life…the sad truth is she has something that with all the surgery in the world I cannot achieve.

Now let’s look very objectively at all the people we know in our community – catch them at their best – at a Ball – or socializing on the town. Even with hormones, face surgery and whatever money can buy, can we honestly say that we don’t read that they were born male -or at least walk away with a feeling something doesn’t quite gel?

I know I’m not being nice or politically correct here – and maybe “it takes one to recognize one” – but dress 99% of our community in male work clothes and I guarantee you won’t read them as unambiguously female. The exceptions often are those who embraced their true gender early in life, as youth is a great asset in these matters.

I used to think this obsession with trying to achieve dreams through surgery was a male thing – the stereotypical compulsion of genetic males to fix things up physically rather than by talking about it. But then the rush of women going for boob jobs and face lifts shows that the desire to be “more feminine” is across the board – much to the advantage of cosmetic surgeons.

Physically in many ways I’m not the same as I was 20 years ago, but I can honestly say that the motive behind those changes was so I could personally project being more feminine. I would never think that the changes I have made would convince people I was female. That is a dream – sadly also a very expensive dream.
[/ul]

There so many more ideas we could discuss – but I have the idea this is long enough for one post.

My summary is that the house is quite irrelevant in the long term – it is the contents that matter more!

[Adrian]

Re-reading what I posted earlier – I think I should stress that I was commenting within the scope of Chloe’s topic – Society attitudes to Transgender.
When I wrote:

Quote:

Unfortunately, this is the fear scenario. It doesn’t actually tell us what would be the attitude of people to someone who presents with the right combination of message and confidence in Hicksville. It speculates an outcome – which may be true. But it leaves us not knowing if the fear is founded on fact.

I was not commenting on the often justifiable fear we have of telling partners and loved ones.
I would not like anyone reading my positive comments about acceptance in society to assume that the same thing automatically goes for relationships.
Attitudes to Transgender in society are I think a lot more liberal and accepting than many partners. The former can I believe be embraced without fear – the latter should be approached with great caution and sensitivity.

[Adrian]

Quote:

But out here in “Hicksville” and at least in my case, where the village gossips and in particular a very nasty neighbour would have a field day if Caty emerged on “Main Street Hicksville”, it dont work quite so well.

Unfortunately, this is the fear scenario. It doesn’t actually tell us what would be the attitude of people to someone who presents with the right combination of message and confidence in Hicksville. It speculates an outcome – which may be true. But it leaves us not knowing if the fear is founded on fact.

I do know that Chloe is not a city girl, which makes me think the issue may not be as black and white as it is frequently claimed.

Quote:

So I’m wondering if any other “regional” TGR members are in the same situation.

Perhaps, if any other “regional” TGR members have tested the attitude of the public at large, that would be a more useful input into the discussion.

[Adrian]

Chloe,

I too watch the mixed reception that others either receive in society or more often fear they will receive. Your analysis of the factors that you think account for such a positive outcome is good and thought provoking.

Whilst I don’t present in a gender ambiguous way at work (or I try not to) – I do live most of the rest of my life projecting my femininity – through clothes, physical features, and lifestyle choices. For several years now I’ve been very comfortable being ‘me’ in public, and, like you, I haven’t received the much feared backlash from partner, family, friends, or society at large.

I see some shared aspects to our experiences that might explain us having such a charmed life. Hopefully they might provide clues for others to anticipate the reactions they will get.

1. The Message
Part of society’s reaction to us seems to depend on what message we are giving.

The message I send is “I’m a boy who is very much a girl inside”. It seems that this is something that few people find challenging. I don’t care if others accept me because “I must be gay” or if they explore deeper and discover this isn’t the case – it isn’t for me to demand the level to which they engage in exploring gender diversity. Even my 91 year old father recently observed that he saw no evidence that the world was cleanly split between boys and girls. The message doesn’t challenge conventional norms based on binary genders but rather invites the listener to acknowledge the existence of other personas outside these norms. I think this to some degree encourages shared discoveries and mutual learning.

On the other hand I see many who confront society with the message “I am a woman”. The reaction they get is more mixed. Though many of the institutions of society accommodate this message (largely due to some recent enlightened changes to legislation) I feel the general public does not as a whole. The assertion that you wish to be considered as, and treated identically to, a woman is an open challenge to the way most individuals view the world. It doesn’t question the society norm of there being two genders, but rather attempts to blur what each binary gender actually is. A lot of people, and certainly partners and family find this message very difficult to relate to and consequently often resist it. I’m not for one moment suggesting that many of those projecting this message do not genuinely feel they belong in the “woman” box – but rather the reaction they get from the public is, to a large degree, understandable.

The final message I hear is “I’m just a crossdresser”. The implication of this message is a request for society to treat the person as a ‘normal’ man but allow for their desire to express femininity through clothing. The common response to this is an acceptance (often heavily qualified). Reactions range from it being an OK thing to do in private if you want, to perhaps an accepting amusement (particularly by shops). The reaction of the public to crossdressing outside the house or sheltered support groups does appear to be mixed. And I think it depends heavily on a second factor.

2. The Attitude

In the public forum good things seem to come to those who those who project an aura of total confidence in who they are. It doesn’t matter if you feel you are a woman, or if you just dress up for the occasion, if you project fear, inferiority, or discomfort then the reaction of the public can just make matters worse.

I know this sounds a bit like one of those self-help books in the airport bookshop but truly “Believe in Yourself and People Will Be Forced to Believe in You”. It’s beyond me to suggest how you as an individual can achieve this – perhaps you should buy a book! But there are many examples of people in our community who project their self-belief.

It is years since I came out of the closet, but for much of the time afterwards I felt I was exploring gender – trying to find a way out of what was still a confusing situation for me. Fairly recently I stopped trying to apologise for “crossdressing in public” and for “not wanting to transition to a woman” and became proud of exactly who I was. With that pride came a confidence that allowed me to organise mega-events such as TransFormal, tell my friends, and present a positive image of “me”. In all of that I have never encountered anything more adverse than an occasional double look.

So my conclusion is that a lot of the reaction you get from society is a result of the message you need to project, and the confidence with which you project it.

I’m guessing that Chloe ticked both boxes.

[Adrian]

Can I recommend the post by Dana60 as being the sort of objective description that is needed in these forums when discussing teh effect of herbal preparations.

I don’t believe that repeated subjective descriptions are a basis for others making informed decisions. I feel that there have already been too many such posts in these forums. Although I don’t want to go back and delete all the potentially misleading descriptions, if postings continue in this way then I will have no option.

Once again – please look at what Dana60 wrote and try to emulate her factual approach – or please don’t post.