Adrian
Forum Replies Created
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September Cafe Night
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August’s Picture (deleted by mistake)
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nicola wrote:It’s best to take as long as u can b4 deciding to transition.Looks like she not only fell too far down the hole,but she also meet the mad hatter and the queen of hearts b4 Alice decided she wonted to escape wonderland.
Actually there isn’t anything in the story to say that Matthew/Chelsea acted with undue haste. Maybe there was the usual impatience to get on with it, but there was time in there to get a negative doctor opinion.
Obviously the longer you take there more chance there is you may discover the journey that is for you. But if all you have is a lengthy timescale but a mind set fixed on the chosen end point then I doubt you will spend that “transition time” thinking about alternative destinations.
nicola wrote:Here is a web site that i have planed my journey on.
http://www.tsroadmap.comRoad maps… what a good idea. Maybe that is the main problem – no one seems to have a road map that encourages a dialog about all the possible destinations. There is no decision matrix helping us find what is right for us. So we lurch along at each fork in the road, and sometimes don’t see the forks at all. Poor Chelsea seems to have had only one destination in her mind.. and a good road map might have at least shown her some alternatives.
So of course I’m curious to see if at long last someone has started to create this useful resource. I just had to look at http://www.tsroadmap.com – a site aimed at those transitioning in the USA…..
It starts encouragingly
Quote:Transsexual & Transgender Road Map
Welcome! Transgender transition is simply a journey. Just like a trip, you decide on
your destination
the time you’ll need to get there
the money you’ll spendI’m a first time visitor and I want to understand my destination – so we click on start here
The next page (http://www.tsroadmap.com/start/timetable.html) talks about my timetable. The timetable must be important because our destination involves going “full-time” and having surgery.
Maybe all the destinations a transgender can go to need these things, so after getting the message we should go slow, I click on Primary Considerations.
Even though we haven’t decided if having a sex change is right for us, the next page (http://www.tsroadmap.com/start/male-to-female.html) goes into the details of the things involved physically and legally. Obviously Primary Considerations don’t actually include a consideration of if the proposed destination is appropriate for you personally.
You get the message. This is a web site by a generous hearted transsexual who wants to help others following her to her destination.
Ask yourself. If Chelsea had looked at this web site (she may have), would it have helped her resolve her gender identify issues better?
My opinion is that these web sites with “how to do it” guides for those who want to change their sex to address their gender identity are part of the problem not a solution. By hiding the rich variety of choices we can make they lure people like Chelsea down someone else’s journey.
I feel this site is doubly bad because it purports to help you make decisions about your destination but then describes in detail one journey. If your destination happens to match the one presented on this web site then there is a lot of good detail. But it may encourage you to immerse yourself in planning on how to get to the wrong place. There appears to be nothing here to help you understand your gender identity better.
Poor Chelsea… was there no one out there actually trying to help her?
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The second reputation block for members from the old website has expired.
So, your reputation will have gone down.
Please don’t email me asking “Why has my reputation gone down?”
It appears that the reward points in the new reputation system are not high enough… as I would prefer the average member to have a reputation of 40 or 50. But as I said earlier, I can’t adjust the system until the final block reputation from the old site expires and all reputation points come from the new site. That will be a job for Christmas! -
Searching for more background on the Attonley / Price connection I came across this article with a few extra details. It is quite a funny / unsympathetic read… but personally I’m not sure that out gushing of sympathy is justified in this case.
Quote:A woman’s prerogative…Exclusive http://morningmail.org/womans-prerogative/
by B J O’Reilly
We all accept – especially the ladies and, of course, proper gents – that it is a woman’s prerogative to change her mind.
And this is exactly what an English lass, Chelsea Attonley has done and yet, very strangely to my mind, there has been an absolute tsunami of condemnation, ridicule, outrage and general shock and anger.
Poor Ms Attonley, 30, is now living on social security in London because she is depressed, anxious and stressed beyond belief. Indeed, she has admitted, “It is exhausting putting on make-up and wearing heels all of the time. Even then I don’t feel I look like a proper woman.”
Well, I’m no expert on womanly ways – what man is? – but I did visit her website and was rather impressed by her gallery of snaps. She has what I understand is called the “fuller figure” and is certainly very buxom and very curvaceous – quite opulent actually and she sure puts the VEEEE into voluptuous. One would go so far as to say “Rubenesque”.
Looking at her snaps I suddenly recalled that when I was in Grade 2, our teacher was similarly built and if she called you to the front of the class you couldn’t see her face if you stood too closely looking up. Her magnificent chest was invariably encased in black or brown velvet and adorned by a triple-strand of pearls which heaved alarmingly when she was seized by a strong emotion.
So I do hope that you get some idea of what the well-structured Ms Attonley looks like.
Anyhow Ms Attonley is pretty much fed up with being Ms Chelsea Attonley and wants to be Mr Matthew Attonley but don’t get the idea that Chelsea is some sort of lesbian wanting to be a man in the style of former Ms Chastity Bono, the daughter of Sonny and Cher who is now Mr Chaz Salvatore Bono. In fact, until a mere seven years ago, Chelsea was actually Matthew.
It’s rather a long story but I shall try and be economical with the words.
Young Matthew, a precocious bundle if ever there was one, liked nothing more as a kiddie than slipping into mummy’s room and trying on her lipstick, makeup and dresses. Indeed, Chelsea has posted an adorable snap for her (well, then, still him) at the age of 6 pretty in pink with a short skirt and fluffy top and the most extraordinary piled-high blond wig. She – sorry, he – looked like a scaled down version of Dolly Parton.
Inevitably, Matthew grew up to be a drag queen and she developed a fixation about Katie Price who, I understand as a result of my research, is an “international glamour model” because she said she is. Matthew, then known (when frocked-up) as Miss Malibu, tried every way he (well, she) could to look like Ms Price.
Then – oh joy of joys – one evening in a chance encounter, Miss Malibu got to meet Ms Price in a nightclub. It was a road to Damascus moment.
During their brief conversation – a highlight of which was Ms Price poking Miss Malibu’s very large “breasts” and asking if they were “for real” – Ms Price said “Just go for it” when the subject of having the big op for the chop was raised. While I don’t doubt for a nanosecond that Ms Price is an ornament on catwalks from Paris to New York and beyond, I haven’t discovered that she has any specialist knowledge about gender reassignment. I could be wrong.
I suppose when it comes to making a sensible and informed decision about such a major move, doing it in a nightclub, no doubt with the benefit of refreshment, and after a brief chat with a glamour supermodel is as good a place as any. I met a glamour supermodel once but I didn’t raise this question; in fact it would have been difficult raising any question at all as this supermodel was either away with the pixies because of some substance or just naturally vacuous – possibly both.
A mean-spirited medico had already turned down Matthew’s request for gender reassignment and, frankly, what did he know compared to Ms Katie Price? By the way, Ms Price is also known as Jordan – and, no, I don’t know why and I couldn’t be bothered looking it up.
So, when Matthew got home he broke the news. Later, he recalled, “I just blurted out ‘Mum I’m going to be a woman’ and she switched Emmerdale off and said ‘About time!” before giving me a big hug.”
While I sincerely want to believe everything Chelsea says, I find this recollection difficult to swallow. What British middle-aged housewife would switch off Emmerdale just for a bit of family news? Frankly it beggars belief because it could have been the episode about the plane crash, the bus crash, the King’s River explosion or even Sarah Sugden’s death at the hands of her adopted son! Emmerdale ranks number two behind Coronation Street as the longest-running UK soap and, despite the very best efforts of a vast team of writers since 1972, it hasn’t even come close to replicating Matthew/Chelsea’s journey through life.
What mother wouldn’t think something is, well, a bit different about her son who would reminisce years later; “Even at nursery, I’d dress up in ladies’ hats and gloves. Sometimes I’d sneak into mum’s room and try on her lipstick, heels and clothes.” And who bought Matthew that pretty in pink outfit and blond wig when he was 6 – or did the brazen little tyke just march into the women and girls’ section of a department store waving a credit card? And who took the lovely snap of him all dressed up for the family album?
Having made the decision, Matthew got his way and had a 10,000 pound (about AU$18,500) operation to turn him into Chelsea. Of course it was all on the taxpayer courtesy of Britain’s National Health Service.
Incidentally, Chelsea admitted that her mum said that she had always suspected that Matthew was “a transgender” – I suppose her Matthew coming home every night in a frock, complete with make-up and high heels could have got mum wondering, even if she was transfixed by Emmerdale. Pretty clearly, not much gets by Matthew/Chelsea’s mum.
As recently as March this year Chelsea was all bubbly about her life. “I love my curves and I am so happy with my body now. I see myself as a role model for plus-size women. You can be just as sexy with curves as you can be if you are skinny. I want to get married and have kids. I’d love to have a Cinderella wedding carriage just like Jordan. Hopefully, one day I can thank her for inspiring me to become the person I was born to be,” she said.
But, sadly, it has all ended in tears.
“I have decided it would be easier to stop fighting the way I look naturally and accept that I was born a man physically. Now I have decided that I want to live as Matthew. I am desperate to have my FF-cup boobs removed. I can’t afford to have this done privately, so I am hoping to have the op on the NHS,” she said. In case you have forgotten the NHS – Britain’s National Health Service – means the taxpayer and this surgery will cost about fourteen thousand pounds, about AU$26,000.
What on earth had happened I wondered? Did Chelsea have another nightclub chance encounter with another international supermodel who took one look and began laughing hysterically? We will never really know.
Her latest confession doesn’t exactly explain why there is now a need to reverse the reversal.
“I have always longed to be a woman but no amount of surgery can give me an actual female body and I feel that I am living a lie. I can’t work at the moment because I am too upset after what I have been through. I need these operations for the sake of my mental health,” she said.
Hang on a second – weren’t the gender reversal operations just seven years ago for the sake of then Matthew’s mental health? But that is water under the bridge now of course.
“I’m lucky enough to live in a country where there is free health care. I know I need these changes to make me happy and no one should deny me that,” she said. Having taken this latest decision, Chelsea – yes, she is still Chelsea because Matthew changed his name legally after the first operations and, as far as we know, hasn’t got around to changing it legally back to Matthew – has started taking testosterone to begin the process of becoming a man again.
She is also considering having penis reconstruction surgery as you would, of course.
There’s no need for me to quote any of the comments of outrage that the British media have produced – you can guess – but what I’m really waiting for is something from Ms Price – aka Jordan. Maybe she could do no better than recycle her “Just go for it” encouragement?
And spare a thought for Chelsea/Matthew’s mum – the poor woman must be in emotional turmoil and even stricken with grief and self-reproachment but at least she has one certainty in her life – Emmerdale.
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Before this thread wanders further away from media and onto suicide rates (something that I am in part responsible for) can I tie things back to the original article.
Chelsea/Matthew gives scant information about why she regrets the surgery she has had. All we have is this statement:
Quote:“It is exhausting putting on make-up and wearing heels all the time. Even then I don’t feel I look like a proper woman,There is no mention of the requirement to wear heels being related to her employment.
It seems she is on a quest to look like a “proper woman” – and in her mind, heels and makeup are the hallmarks of a proper woman. It is now 7 years since she had a sex change and I wonder if the depression that she attributes to HRT is in fact just disillusionment with her perceived failure to present as a proper woman.If we are looking for something to take away from this story perhaps I can suggest:
a) The gatekeepers to sex reassignment are there for a reason. If someone stands in the way of what you want there might be a good reason. In this case ” a doctor rejected her initial bid for a sex change” – she may have been much happier had she looked for a route to gender expression that didn’t involve surgery. But she chose to go against the initial medical opinion.
b) Strangers may not be the best source of advice as to what you should do. In this case “he met glamour model Price, aka Jordan, Price encouraged Attonley, who mimicked the bombshell’s look in drag, to make the change, saying: “Go for it!”. I hope Price is feeling a bit guilty now about being so free with unqualified advice.
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Which of course leads to three observations:
1. How did this study overcome the usual technical problem in assessing the outcomes of sex reassignment – the fact that Transexuals stop visiting the clinic after their operations and getting any reliable follow up data is difficult/impossible.
2. If the suicide rate is only 1% in post-operative transexuals then why is everyone quoting higher rates… is the issue we need to address only with with non-operative transgenders?
3. I can’t speak French
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rachelannoz wrote:The regret rate can be 1-2%, a relatively small figure. But stuff happens, as we all know.
Can you quote a reference for that figure of 1 – 2%?
Does it include suicides? (The ultimate expression of regret) -
OK – It happened!
The summary of the conference was:
Quote:The conference had two main stakeholders, ‘the Service Providers’ and ‘the Community’, and had 175 attendees.At its final session the body of the conference passed four motions.
1. That the Governments of the States and Territories of Australia and New Zealand provide publicly funded, evidence based quality health care to the Trans* community.
2. That the Australian Federal Government immediately address the issue of cross sex hormone therapy for young Trans* people without recourse to applications to the Family Court.
3. That the Governments of the States and Territories of Australia address the need to access quality Trans* health care for those Australians living in rural and remote areas.
4. That the Federal, State and Territory Governments develop unifying laws that address the human rights of all Trans* identified Australians.
Anyone want to share their take on the proceedings?
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lifeisajourney wrote:Changing your gender is a really big deal……
There are so many resources on the internet that talk about how difficult transitioning is.I’m not sure I agree that transitioning (in the sense of expressing your true gender and not the gender you were assigned at birth) is difficult. Changing your gender expression has risks, but being honest is, I suspect, easier than living a lie. It was for me.
What I think is difficult is understanding your gender identity. Understanding it with sufficient confidence that you can take the correct steps to transition to achieve a true gender expression. All too often I think the haste to go somewhere precludes a meaningful consideration about where.
The temptation is ever present to assume that if man feels wrong then woman must be right. We look at other’s transition stories and assume that they must be correct for us. We form support groups that tend to re-enforce our choices rather than question them. And the result? People like Chelsea select a borrowed transition that isn’t theirs. Often this results in a journey to be a woman where the concept of what it means to be a woman is brushed aside as an inconvenient (and I suspect unanswerable) detail. The focus is on a sex change, but surgery can’t automatically make anyone a woman.
If you have convinced yourself that you need to be a woman then you can slip easily through the medical hurdles and check points on the route. I recall once being advised before a job interview to adopt a fictitious persona (Robinson Crusoe I think) to score better at the personality test. The more you believe you should be a woman then the harder it is for a psychologist to detect if you are telling the truth, and also the harder it is for you to confront your own gender reality.
I don’t view transitioning as a logical extension of crossdressing. Transitioning aligns your gender expression with your gender identity, resulting in an expression that has consistency; this is not the same experience as cross-dressing full time. Crossdressing to many means high heels, makeup, fancy underwear and skirts. Others have pointed out the connection between this and being a woman is tenuous at best.
I’m guessing that Chelsea succumbed to a convenient destination – crossdressing full time (or perhaps being a drag queen full time in this case?). Having reached the destination she discovers that crossdressing full time is hard work, and doesn’t actually express her gender identity. So sadly she assumes the only options are binary and she must go back to where she came from.
Chelsea should be grateful that she is still alive, as so many others take their life when they find that their chosen destination is inconvenient, impossible or just wrong. But her chances for the future, if she doesn’t pause to find her true gender identity, seem bleak.
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I don’t think it is a hard ask to expect everyone to log into the web site once a year. Many of the members who haven’t transferred over to the new site hadn’t accessed the old site for 9 months. So I expect most have just lost any interest in being involved. Purging has the benefit of not loosing the active interested members in a sea of uninterested unresponsive dead accounts. And there is no barrier to rejoining if you come back from the wilderness!
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Try contacting Penny in NSW on this site. She went a couple of years ago.
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Correct. Matisse is a product by Allergan who I contracted for last year. So I didn’t score employee free access to ‘samples’. The effects do indeed wear off, and it has its risks. Funny how all the girls in the office had lovely eyes!
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True. I’ve never chased the numbers with TgR. Always preferred to have a virtual community that was active. So the move will certainly see a drop in the headline numbers but I hope will also bring in more new members.