[Adrian]

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Just what are you offering in your discussions? any help, I don’t think so.Liz

Granted the world is split between those who question and are driven by why…and those who just want to be left alone with their thoughts. In the nicest way ignorance for many is bliss. Sometimes when travelling I often envy the simplicity of a peasant’s unquestioning life.

I get a lot of help reading the posts from others that try to make sense of this gender mess we are all in. That’s why I enjoy robust discussions like the one in this thread. So I can answer – yes we are offering help – albeit only to those who are prepared to engage. The proof is the fact that I (and I hope others) find it a help. The reality is that any answers to a puzzle this complex are not going to be offered on a plate in a forum post – they are going to be found by those who sift through all the evidence, ideas and thoughts.

But you don’t have to engage with the questioners of the world if you don’t want to. The joy of forums – read what interests you and skip the rest.

Personally I get no comfort in seeing people who are not accepted by society, who make decisions that drive them into deeper uncertainty and confusion, who seek support but find that those supporting them know less about them than they do. Its depressing stuff – and so I am determined to keep on turning over this gender puzzle till our collective understanding improves.

Perhaps we need another coloured sticker for TransFormal… one for don’t take my picture…and another for don’t confuse me with your ideas!! Now that IS off-topic!

[Adrian]

More good feedback – thank you!

Christina

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I’m not interested in scales. It’s just another way to pathologise what is ‘natural.

There are many spectra in human form that are measured. The argument that we shouldn’t measure something otherwise it will be represented as a disease is interesting but but hardly heretical.

It might hold up for weight and waist size – which is used to pathologise obesity. But do people stop measuring their weight because of this? No.

It might hold up for age which is used to determnine when people should be scrapped from the workforce. But do we stop measuring our age? No.

And so the list goes on… blood pressure, shoe size, eye sight….
Granted these are all physical attributes that can be accurately measured.
But hopefully we can agree that gender is something in your head – something that can’t accurately be measured. So even if there is a “scale” you can only be placed on the scale, as Christina observed, by self assessment. This doesn’t seem a big threat to me…its like being told that your weight is whatever you want to tell me it is!

Moving forward
Perhaps it would help if try and rationalise why I see the need for some crude measure to understand gender diversity.

1. Putting myself on the map
Acknowledgement that “gender is a spectrum” from the community who were born male is pretty scant. I still get lots of “surprised” looks when I tell people.
On the other side of the fence the “Tom Boy” girl has been acknowledged for a long while, and the gender queers and butch gender types have a place in public awareness. On our side, years of entrenched slagging-off and bickering between the “transitioning/transexual” gender type and “crossdressing” gender types has drawn a battle line that goes right through the inter gender space. People retreat for safety into the “I’m a man” and “I’m a woman” gender spaces – it may feel comfortable for them, but it isn’t the right solution for anyone who honestly knows they are in between. And no Lisa, it isn’t a solution just to give the label androgynous to anyone in the middle – apart from the images it conjures up in the public of a green headed man with 5 arms – it does not acknowledge that many in this space are very close to being essentially male or essential female – that’s a lot of different gender types being bundled into one, rather depressing label.

2. Providing appropriate advice and support
The current support models seem to, by and large, reflect the established battleground of the gender types. The only pathways I am aware of are there to determine/confirm/convince people to transition, or to frighten them off back into the closet. I am not aware of anywhere I could go personally to receive appropriate professional advice or support (other than here on TgR). For as long as the system is dominated by a thought process binning people as “transexual” or “crossdresser”, then the situation is not going to improve. The consequence is that many people are either going to take inappropriate decisions in their life, or they are going to miss out on the joy of expressing their true gender identity. Given the size of this neglected part of the spectrum (I’m suspicious that it is by far the largest component) we have to increase awareness. One way to do that is to stand up and be counted – to have some sort of “scale” that allows us to associate clearly with not being essentially male or female.

As a followup I think there are also issues that need to be addressed in the FFFF gender space. The assumption that everyone who is FFFF is on the train to transition is not remotely justified by our recent survey results. I think they too are suffering from a lack of visibility – probably a fallout of the heavy publicity generated on SRS “transition stories”. With the recent changes to acknowledge that gender is not determined by physical genitalia – then maybe the non-SRS FFFF will attract more appropriate attention and support. But once again I think you have to be visible to create the necessary awareness in society.

3. Building an integrated community
If someone sees their gender as being male with some female aspects and wants to transition, what might be the best form of advice they could receive? In the crude “scale” I use they see themselves as FMMM – but there are also FMMM gender types born female. How much could we learn if as a community we allowed/encouraged/facilitated those who are inter-gender to communicate their experiences irrespective of their born sex.
In the particular scenario I presented, the person envisaging SRS could see the issues and rewards of their chosen journey just by talking to others who are “already there”. Once again, if we can use some gender “scale” to bind together the community , irrespective of born sex, then I see great advantages. But I agree – this one is real dream stuff!!!

4. Understanding diversity.
There is a long way between those who identify as essentially male and those who identify as female. I want to consider that we belong to one gender spectrum. But, as the TgR survey shows, if you ask questions of the whole spectrum the answers you receive obscure the significant differences. You don’t notice that one particular part of the spectrum experiences challenges that others do not encounter. So, to get an idea how male morphs into female on this spectrum you do I feel need to divide it up in some meaningful way. And that of course is where this whole concept of MMM,FMM,FFMM,FFFM,FFFF started out!

I figure those who are happily FFFF or MMMM are going to find it hard to put their heads into the space I’m coming from. I know I find it hard to do the reverse. But please try – it won’t blow your mind!

[Adrian]

Lisa,
thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do appreciate the opportunity to test the frameworks I find work for me against a wider audience.

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What you two ladies seem to have forgotten is the new reasearch which shows that Transexualism & GID seems to be a genetic disorder or at least mediated by changes in the hormonal milieu we encounter while in utero.

I’m not sure I like to be called a lady – because my gender isn’t binary – but that’s another thread!
And the whole nature or nurture argument is a valid one to discuss but I don’t see how it affects a discussion of an individual’s gender at a moment in time.

But we seem to agree that gender is what is in your head and not what is between your legs.

Regardless of the primary cause (which I suspect is still the topic of argument/discussion) then we can either accept that gender is a binary male/female state which is pretty readily assessed without scales in the same way as we can examine genitalia to determine physical sex, or it is a spectrum with a large number of possible states.

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So what I think is; that it does not matter what we think; we are programmed to think that way from the beginning. To argue otherwise is pure Sophistry.

I disagree – I think it does matter what we think if we are going to talk about modifying our bodies to match our inner gender and possibly impacting other peoples lives in the process.
And I am concerned that you think I am engaging in plausible but fallacious argument. I think we have to be free to discuss every aspect of our experience if our knowledge and understanding is to grow.

I will ignore the warning and continue to argue the point.

Let us assume for a moment that it is true that we are pre-programmed to think in a particular way. The question is, is there in any value in a scale to assess gender?

Well if gender is binary – no scale is needed.
But if gender is binary then I’m happy to submit myself (and I suspect many other TgR members) to an examination to prove that we are not totally male or totally female in our heads.

So perhaps it would also be Sophistry to deny the existence of a gender spectrum. And if there is a spectrum, how can we make appropriate decisions about the medical, legal, and social frameworks we use unless we in some way understand where on a scale from male to female gender someone actually sits.

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In my opinion if I think that I am a woman – then I am a woman. Full stop – no further discussion needs to be entered into. That maybee too black & white for some people for such a grey area, but that is how I feel.

I don’t find it offensive that someone knows in their head they are FFFF. But I would hope that those who are lucky enough to view their gender in such an easy way can accommodate the much larger percentage of the gender diverse spectrum who are in the grey area.
As someone who has grown up in the grey, personally I know I need to discuss gender and try and find a “scale” that works in my life.

[Adrian]

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I believe there is another qualifier or reason why some of us transition. Please remember this is my own personal take and feel free to argue. Some of us just want to be women. We don’t have to, we don’t feel we are women trapped in a mans’ body, we are not effeminate when presenting as men, we have been successful in our male lives but we would prefer to be a woman.

The need people feel to transition is I agree an interesting topic.
One of the “surprises” in the survey was to find that having SRS was not the unique domain of those who identify as FFFF. This I think demonstrated the value in asking people to rate their own gender identity.

I’m sure if we were able to run the same gender identity question on the general population we would find that there are many people who lead their life as a woman who would rate themselves as FFFM, and a few clearly see themselves as FFMM. So having a FFFF gender identity cannot be made a pre-requisite for being sexually a female. No more than we can insist on all those of male sex being MMMM.

I will argue here that if we and all society were more aware of the inter-gender identities of FFFM, FFMM, and FMMM, then we would be much equipped to make life-choices about our diversity. If we can break the association between sex and gender it will free up everyone’s thinking. And that too is a good reason for having some informal gender scale.

My experience from conversations on this topic, is that many people I meet who want to transition rate themselves as a FFFF (well actually they say “I am a woman inside”). But I find it disturbing that their decisions seem to be made apparently oblivious to the existence of choices other than FFFF and MMMM. It is this binary “all or nothing” viewpoint that I see as being at the root of many subsequent challenges they face.

In that context I think the advice that

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one must never transition unless your life depends on it

is a useful “warning shot across the bows”. But it is negative advice. It needs to be complemented by something more positive, an awareness and acceptance of gender as a spectrum, and diversity as something to be embraced.
I don’t think one can have this positive discussion about alternatives, unless one has some sort of gender scale to talk about. The decision on how you live out your gender in your life does depend on where on the spectrum you feel you belong.

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Some of us just want to be women. We don’t have to, we don’t feel we are women trapped in a mans’ body, we are not effeminate when presenting as men, we have been successful in our male lives but we would prefer to be a woman.

To me this sounds like a statement of sexual presentation over-riding inner gender preference. An attraction to be a woman on the sex axis, without an over-riding need to be in ones head particularly feminine on the gender axis. Sounds very dangerous to me.

Quote:

I hope some members respond to this whether they agree or not.

But as this topic is about gender scales and their value (or not) – can we please carry on any discussion about the validity of non FFFF gender identities transitioning in a different thread please.

[Adrian]

On a more personal note it disturbs me that these initiatives provide no opportunity for members of the gender diverse community to express any opinion other than that being targeted in the petition.

I think there are a lot of people who might appreciate the opportunity to talk freely about such important issues, without the implicit threat that by not supporting fully every initiative they are somehow letting others down.

No matter how many people sign a petition for change, it is always valid and interesting to know how many did not sign it, and for what reason.

Perhaps if someone ran a validated anonymous survey and not a petition they might get a better idea of the broader community feeling.

[Adrian]

I wonder how many people read the petition before just signing it?

The petition has a response from the very people this petition is sent to that seems to say that signing the petition can have no effect….

It says….

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Email from the Human Rights Commission 16/4/12012

Thank you for your email to the Communications Unit at the Commission, raising a critical issue for trans people.

I work in the Human Rights Policy team at the Australian Human Rights Commission, which is the policy team that produced the Sex Files report in March 2009. While the focus of the Sex Files report was specifically the examination of legal identity, the need for gender reassignment surgery to be covered by Medicare was also raised with us in consultations of the sex and gender diversity project at the time, as were a range of other health concerns. See Section 13, Sex Files: the legal recognition: Concluding paper of the sex and gender (2009). In the Sex Files report, we explained how the Commission did not have an opportunity to investigate these matters further in the report. However, we raised them with the federal Minister for Health and recommended that the Australian Health Ministers’ Conference consider them. We will continue to raise human rights issues for sex and gender diverse people with the federal government at the right opportunity.

However, I think that you should raise this significant issue directly with the current federal Minister for Health. Our Communications Unit has received many petitions similar to yours, generated from the change.org petition site (which I think you created?). I see that you have the Communications Unit at the Commission as a default address for the petitions. You may find it more effective to send the petitions to the federal government representatives, as they are responsible for deciding policy for Medicare reimbursements, rather than the Commission.

[Adrian]

As Jan put it – there is a difference… and it is one that might reasonably concern those in the high-tech industry of nappy design.

But seriously, if the campaign for acknowledgement of gender diversity leads to trans warriors insisting that boys and girls must be given identical clothes and identical toys – then I for one am not supporting it. That is anti-sexism gone mad.

It is a fact that the majority of the population want to grow up as either as boys or girls. To deny them the right to do that, is as bad in my opinion, as them denying us the right to be more fluid in our gender expression.

The human species has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years of hunter gatherers and cave dwellers, and in the process men and women have adapted in ways that go well beyond their roles in reproduction. We may not like it, but it is natural for people to bring up their children in the framework that has got the human race to its present position, and audacious of anyone to think they can unravel this bio-conditioning by politically correct grandstanding.

It is unlikely to seriously harm those who are intersex or gender diverse if they spend their early years playing with bricks in a blue nappy when they perhaps might later decide they prefer pink nappies and dolls.

I think we should be fighting for the acceptance of gender expression in whatever form it takes, not stopping those who wish to express themselves as male or female doing so. What society needs is an awareness that those boys in blue nappies might not want to progress to playing rough games with guns. That is where i would like to see the awareness develop in society.

Sadly, for too long debates like this have been dominated by those who see the problem simplistically as women being brought up as men, and men as women. When the debate widens to understanding that diversity can’t be labelled as blue or pink, or bricks and dolls then we might make some meaningful progress.

I’m not holding my breath!

[Adrian]

April 2012

[Adrian]

Sujay

Thanks for that reassuring post – nice to feel that there is some pushing back against the simplistic view that gender diversity is all about sexual preference. You certainly have my total support in that.

I also know that many members of this community have expressed concerns about what lies ahead of them in aged care. This is an example of an issue that is far more of a concern for those who do not simplify theirexpression of gender diversity by transitioning.

This journey is not a one-way street as is illustrated by this posting on the Blue Mountains GBLTI network…

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Dear friends,

Some time ago you might remember that a local nursing home facility owned and operated by Riviera Health won an award for it’s enlightened policy towards their LGBTI residents.

This is part of the article published by Star Online which still appears if you do a search

“A privately owned aged-care provider has been recognised for its work fostering a welcoming and inclusive environment for its residents regardless of sexuality or gender identity.

The Anita Villa nursing home in Katoomba, run by the Riviera Health group, won the ‘strategy to promote the mental health and wellbeing of residents with special needs’ category in this year’s Positive Living in Aged Care Awards organised by the Aged and Community Services Association of NSW and the ACT.

Riviera Health’s Dr Michele Chandler told Sydney Star Observer they were bowled over by the win.”

If you are looking for a facility for a partner, friend or family member, I suggest you ignore this article.

After many emails and phone calls I finally got to speak to the manager of Anita Villa and was shocked to learn that Riviera Health sold this facility quite some time ago. The manager referred to LGBTI residents as “that group of people” and it became obvious she knew nothing about the award or training for staff. She told me there are no future plans for training.

I feel very disappointed that Doctor Michele Chandler who no longer works at the nursing home and who spoke so glowingly at the Homophobia Forum in 2010 about Anita Villa, has never contacted our community to inform us about the changes at Anita Villa.

It’s time for the Federal Government to provide LGBTI nursing home residents with a “special needs category”. Many have become so afraid of discrimination that they find it safer to return to the closet. A sad reflection on our care for the aged.

[Adrian]

The reason for my skepticism in posting this thread can be seen in the third paragraph of the announcement.

Although LGBTI aged care is on the agenda…

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the Government has stated it will act “to ensure that sexual diversity does not act as a barrier to receiving high quality aged care in either community or residential settings”.

So if you are “T” you will get more understanding in aged care for any sexual diversity you exhibit – excellent.

But just a bit tough if you are gender diverse; and sexuality at that age is on the back burner!

[Adrian]

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The circles I move in there are rarely any “real” negative reactions.

The TgR survey report – to be presented at TransFormal next month paints a very different story. It hints at a depressingly high incident of “coming out” to partners resulting in a break-up of relationships. That is a pretty “real” negative and one that I suggest should cause people to think through the consequences in their own personal situation.

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All depends on whether or not you come across as a person wanting to present as the opposite gender or a fetishist.

That is a pretty restrictive classification of our community – it reads a bit like “you are either serious about being a woman or you are a w&&nker”.

Well sadly that type of simplistic binary classification excludes maybe 80% of the TgR membership who fall in between.

I agree that those who decide that they wish to transition have no hesitation in coming out and whilst friends and family may fall by the wayside in the process – the outcome compared to the alternative of remaining male, can be considered positive. Maybe those are the small circles you move in?

Not sure at all about your fetishists..and how you monitor their coming out. they aren’t the sort of people who would come out except perhaps to their sexual partner.

So spare a thought for that silent majority – those who like me would be offended if given the label fetishist, and who certainly are not driven by a need to present all the time as a woman – what does coming out mean in that context. And why do so few come-out?
That is a big question – that perhaps I’ll take into a new thread.

But for now can we have less binary classifications of the community – and more understanding how rich the spectrum of gender diversity is…. please!

[Adrian]

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My thoughts? This list may be well and good, but I guess it all depends on what sort of lifestyle you live.

Ok – I passed up on the need for something “sexy” or “flirty”.
And white…what a liability!!!
Sad – but true.
That leaves me at 6 out of 10…and hardly a great excuse to hit the frock shops this weekend!

[Adrian]

March 2012

Thanks to Kristan (photo), Jane, Lorraine, Penny, Joanne, LK, Caroline, Christina, and Catherine (who left earlier) for such a pleasant evening.

Next month I insist that we go back to our tried and tested practice of having ‘one photo’ please, and give Katie the time to take a good picture. It’s not her fault that the March picture is blurred and taken in a hurry.

[Adrian]

You are warmly invited to attend the launch of a major report into the Gender Diverse community in Australia.

TransGender Radio (TgR) is the largest active transgender group in the southern hemisphere. Since its launch on-line in 1997 it has steadly grown, both in numbers and also in the scope of its activities.
These activities include the annual TransFormal weekend held in Katoomba in May.

In November last year we conducted a comprehensive survey of our membership and received over 400 responses. This was possibly the largest survey of gender diversity that has ever been conducted in Australia. And the results provide an interesting snap-shot of the aspirations, problems, health, and life style of the gender diverse.

We asked our members about:

Their true gender identity
How they express it in their life
How they became aware they were gender diverse, and who else knows
Gender diversity in their family
Medicine or surgery they have used to address their gender diversity
Their opinions and views about the gender diverse community
Their relationship with their GP
Any negative experiences in the last year as a result of being gender diverse
Their dreams for the future

The responses we received are valuable because:

The relatively large number of responses (423)
The survey population had previously been screened to ensure they were gender diverse.
The survey was anonymous and voluntary

We were surprised by many of the answers we received.
And we invite you to share this illuminating insight into our community
The survey report Transgender Australia 2011 will be presented on Saturday 19th May.
in The Library, The Carrington Hotel, Katoomba, NSW at 10:30 am

For a map of this location go here:
http://g.co/maps/j5vyf

To assist in organising this event we do ask that everyone pre-registers on our web site.

Registration is FREE.
Please go to
http://www.trannytix.com/cms/eventselector/tgaust

And register following the instructions on the web page
If you encounter any difficulties registering please email tickets@trannytix.com for assistance.

The survey presentation forms part of the 2012 TransFormal but it is not necessary to attend the entire weekend.
There will however be other activities on the Saturday culminating in a formal dinner/dance.
If you are interested in learning more about TransFormal and possibly purchasing a ticket
then read about it here:

http://www.trannytix.com/transformal

I look forward to seeing you in Katoomba!

Amanda

[Adrian]

Quote:

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And remember to sit down to pee!

on this note, if you do use the Ladies’ toilets and do NOT sit down, as a courtesy please please please put the toilet seat back down!

This will lead almost inevitably to the discussion of why we think it is De-regeur to sit on the seat…but when you actually ask those who have frequented public Ladies toilets from birth you get a different answer.

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Experts say 85 per cent of British women squat or hover over toilet seats when using public conveniences, as opposed to sitting down.

However..I believe that whether one squats or sits – the protocol is always to leave the seat down.

But I could be wrong on this.

I certainly have never heard the seat being “adjusted” in a Ladies – and such a sound could therefore be a dead giveaway!